What Sort of Guarantee Should You Expect From an SEO

[Employment Law Services]

Yet another thread about SEO work dominated by SEO companies arguing amongst themselves and suggestions that common practices are necessary because of rouge clients :cursing:

I wish you all had to do business with each other, maybe then you'd have a better understanding of how your customers feel about SEO practices and why they lack confidence in the outputs.:angry:

SEO companies should vet their clients better to limit their risks and SEO clients should increase their basic understanding of SEO/SEM so they can make educated/informed decisions and stop accepting T&Cs that force them to accept all the risks with no guarantee of any returns........I can't think of ANY other company / client scenario where this happens..........crazy, simply crazy:thumbdown:

To Lynne's point: I agree that with any form of marketing, you can't necessarily guarantee any sales but with SEM you SHOULD be able to make the same sort of guarantees that traditional marketing campaigns make.........eg. exposure to XX amount of potential clients..........but SEM and SEO are two distinctly different things.

Now on to SEO guarantees.............

Why do the majority of SEO companies think they should in no way be held accountable for the work they do?? I won't re-open the debate about when you should actually get paid for whatever work you actually do (it was well covered in another thread) but would simply say this.............Of course you should offer guarantees.

At the very least you should be able to guarantee that you will complete specific things - develop XX amount of backlinks, XX amount of unique content, XX amount of on-page work.

Also, whilst I accept that nobody can or should guarantee position 1, page 1 rankings, you should be able to guarantee positive movement in SERPS for an agreed number of keywords.

If my site is sitting at position 99 and position 55 for my two primary keywords, say office stationary and office supplies, and you begin applying your SEO techniques, why wouldn't you be able to guarantee that my SERPS rank for these two keywords will have improved by XX places within an agreed period of time, say three months?

Surely the 'quality' of the SEO work you do, offset against whatever my competitors might be doing or changes to algorithms, etc would at least ensure some positive movement?? Also, why can't you complete some case studies and use real client experiences to a) demonstrate the positive impact your SEO work has had and, b) use a combination of several experiences to set realistic objectives for new clients that you can actually stand by and guarantee??

Just seems to me that SEO companies what to have their cake and eat it........they all claim to be the best and charge a lot of money to do SEO work yet despite this they avoid being held accountable in any way shape or form by refusing to offer any sort of guarantees made worse by the fact that many also insist on substantial up front payments before they've even done anything!!

Someone compared SEO work to the work a solicitor does..........eh???!!!

For a start, solicitors are obliged to adhere to an extensive set of standards all of which are governed by the law society. If they fail to do so they can face severe penalties, including being struck off.

In the current financial climate consumers are focusing much more closely on costs (rightly so) and getting a return on their investment. Suppliers that can't demonstrate good value for money and who fail to ofer any sort of guarantee of a ROI will find themselves losing out on business to competitors that can offer these UPs.

 

[NorthSouthMedia]

I guess any company would be looking for a better guarantee that their site will be performing better at the end of an seo campaign than before it ever started.

The keyword for me is 'performance' with any client re. SEO

Better performing website / content
Better performing SERP's for their targetted keywords
Better performance in conversion

The level of performance is dependant on the type of contract (cost, timescale),the marketplace, the ability of the seo company and finally the willingness of the client.

A highly successful CEO of a well known marketing company told me once, "Understand what's important to the client and work with the client to make sure that you can deliver on that", Simples!

 

[PeterHoggan]

Yet another thread about SEO work dominated by SEO companies arguing amongst themselves and suggestions that common practices are necessary because of rouge clients :cursing:

I hope I didn’t imply this and I have to say that I am in favour of guarantees. My original question was not pointed at SEO's, I know their point of view and it infuriates me that it still exists. Also, I apologise to one and all for briefly adopting the stance of devil’s advocate and the ensuing heated debate.

However, I really do want to know what business owners who are contemplating SEO would want, or expect, in respect of a guarantee from a SEO company.

 

[Boxby]

However, I really do want to know what business owners who are contemplating SEO would want, or expect, in respect of a guarantee from a SEO company.

One that was worth something........:001_unsure:

 

[Employment Law Services]

I hope I didn’t imply this and I have to say that I am in favour of guarantees. My original question was not pointed at SEO's, I know their point of view and it infuriates me that it still exists. Also, I apologise to one and all for briefly adopting the stance of devil’s advocate and the ensuing heated debate.

However, I really do want to know what business owners who are contemplating SEO would want, or expect, in respect of a guarantee from a SEO company.

Not at all Peter, no worries! The topic is a good one and hopefully you'll get responses from others like me (potential SEO clients) so you get a balanced view from us opposed to SEO companies themselves.

My expections are based on the assumption that that the SEO company concerned would initially review my site (content, keywords, performance) then would provide advice on keywords (selection),onsite optimisation, content quality, etc which would ultimately form the basis for the SEO work they would deliver.
Thereafter, I would want written into the SLA/Contract, a complete project overview detailing all aspects of the SEO work being undertaken with clear milestones and specific timescales for delivery all under-pinned by a clearly defined success criteria linked specifically to those areas of site performance that the commissioned SEO work was designed to address namely, SERPS, conversions, bounce rate, etc.

With the aforementioned in mind, and using as a benchmark verified results the SEO company were able to deliver for previous cleints, I would expect the SEO company to guarantee the following:

1) Improved performance in SERPS - I would insist on an improvement in performance equal to the average of what they've previously acheived for other clients

2) Improved performance in site traffic resulting from generic searches - I would insist on an improvement in performance equal to the average of what they've previously acheived for other clients

3) Improved performance in bounce rates - I would insist on an improvement in performance equal to the average of what they've previously acheived for other clients

4) Improved performance in site conversions (as previously agreed) - I would insist on an improvement in performance equal to the average of what they've previously acheived for other clients

All of the above shoul;d be written into the SLA/Contract to protect the interests of both parties as too should a payment schedule based on an initial deposit of no more than 25% of the overall project costs with further payments only being required upon succussful completion of agreed milestones and a final payment being made only if the final success criteria is acheived.

As i've said in previous posts, the SEO company and the Client should share the risks equally and I beleive this model does exactly that and more importantly, give the client a level of confidence and comfort.

 

[stuarty]

1. common practices are necessary because of rouge clients :cursing:
2. I wish you all had to do business with each other.....they lack confidence in the outputs.:angry:
3. Why do the majority of SEO companies think they should in no way be held accountable for the work they do??
4. Of course you should offer guarantees. At the very least you should be able to guarantee that you will complete specific things - develop XX amount of backlinks, XX amount of unique content, XX amount of on-page work.
5. you should be able to guarantee positive movement in SERPS...why wouldn't you be able to guarantee that my SERPS rank...by XX places
6. Surely the 'quality' of the SEO work you do...would at least ensure some positive movement
7.offset against.....changes to algorithms
8.Also, why can't you complete some case studies and use real client experiences to a) demonstrate the positive impact your SEO work has had..
9. Just seems to me that SEO companies what to have their cake and eat it...yet despite this they avoid being held accountable in any way shape or form...made worse by the fact that many also insist on substantial up front payments before they've even done anything!!

Since you're clearly pointing the finger at me as the "other SEO" then lets get one thing clear - our first serviceline is SEM and always has been. We are an internet marketing company who offer SEO as a complementary service!

Secondly, what actual facts you have to back up these aspersions you're cast against an entire industry? The majority of SEOs actually take online businesses to the next level and/or do positive work. I'd bet that if your's was taken to the next level you wouldn't be so quick to criticise.

In defence of the majority of legit SEO companies...
1. Yes of course there should be. Do you think it's acceptable for clients to rip off SEOs?
2.How do you know we dont? We do business with other SEOs on projects - many others do too. None of our clients have ever expressed a lack of confidence and I know of dozens of good SEO companies who can say the same.
3. What majority exactly? I know scores of SEOs who take their responsibilities very seriously and you certainly don't speak for any of them! Shocking thing to say!
4. These are not guarantees at all - these are deliverables! In the correct context a guarantee means to "warrant" the service. These so called "guarantees" you describe are the very things that the bad SEOs hide behind and use to rip clients off!! Here's how..."guarantee" the client 10 links...place a sig on a forum/blog...job done. "Guarantee" the client on page optimisation...add a few H1 tags, some bold text, a page title...do no keyword research...job done. It goes on! All these these things you mention are and have been used to scam clients by calling them "guarantees" and that my friend is precisely why we get lawyers to form contracts and SLAs to protect both parties from being ripped off!
5. Really? Maybe we should guarantee that they won't go down while we're at it? Do you honestly expect an SEO to guarantee your results will improve by say 17 places? Ridiculous. Search engines don't offer guarantees do they? If you knew anything about Google's "Universal" algorithim (launched q1 this year) you would know that there is personalisation and localisation plus 400 other factors. You can use the same phrase and rank differently in two different towns for example. (Source: Matt Cutts of Google at PubCon in December). How can an SEO offer a guarantee on this basis then?
6. How do you define quality when there's no standards to measure them by? I think HP beans are better quality than Heinz beans - does the quality of fart produced by the HP beans ensure a more positive movement?
7. Er...no one knows when or what changes will be made to algorithims and you expect SEOs make guarantees on this? Ridiculous.
8. Who can't exactly? I know scores of companies who can demonstrate positive impact.
9. Just seems to me that you have no evidence to back this up! You've no idea what preparation,research and implementation goes into things beforehand (not to mention the extra mile lots of companies go to). Good SEOs are fully accountable for everything they do - and that means everything. If you seriously think for a minute that all clients throw money at SEOs without any diligence on both parts then you are seriously mistaken.

I know there are things wrong with the industry (just like other industries) but the last thing it needs is another person on a forum with no working experience of the industry tarring every SEO with the same brush!

 

[Boxby]

I posted on another forum recently that there seems to be an assumption in analysing SEO that your website is the only one that is changing. But that would be a wrong one to make.

We do not operate in a vacum. Our website may go up in rankings because competitors change their websites, or because google changes make the websites ahead of ours less relevant to googles criteria.

Our website may go down in the rankings because 10 companies in the rankings ahead of us have changed their websites positively.

I have moved up 20 places on one of my keywords this week. I haven't changed anything dramatic. I have added a couple of new pages here, tweaked some tags there, listed in a couple of relevant directories. But I, Personally, have no idea which, if any, of those changes resulted in the improvement in rankings by 20 places. And I would be surprised if anyone, SEO expert or not, could attribute ranking improvements to each of the changes made.

We should always assume that every one of our competitors, sitting above us and below us in the rankings is just as concerned about their rankings as we are, and taking the same (if not more) effort to protect and improve them.

SEO is a feel I orchestra situation. And the one thing about being in the orchestra is that you need to be fully aware of those around you and what they are doing.

 

[polr]

Stuarty I don't want to quote your message because its so huge but very well said indeed! We do work in an industry where we seem to constantly be apologising for offering a service - what other service provider has to do that?

At the very least you should be able to guarantee that you will complete specific things - develop XX amount of backlinks, XX amount of unique content, XX amount of on-page work.

I actually never even thought to put in a comment such as this one above as I thought it was such an obvious point! Of course we "guarantee" unique content etc but as you say, this is just the work we carry out as part of the package not a "guarantee".

That's like saying when I go into a restaurant I want a verbal guarantee that my food will be delivered, I don't as I understand, as well as the waiters that if it doesn't appear it's a fail and I won't stay or come back!

I actually think that the word that's confusing everyone and causing distress is the word "guarantee" as it immediately makes anyone who has to sell SEO think of "guaranteeing position 1" (a common request!). Maybe we could all be nice to each other again if it was reworded to:

"...what sort of deliverables would you expect as the goals of your particular campaign would be met? "

Just a thought!

 

[Employment Law Services]

Stuarty, I intentionally make an effort NOT to name names or 'point the finger' at any specific post or individuals in this and any other threads I've posted in and in an other circumstances wouldn't waste my time responding to such a hostile post directed at me specifically.

However, because I generally respect your right to an opinion and have found many of your posts quite interesting / useful I've made an exception on this occassion.

One thing I would ask though, read my last post - I thought it was quite clear regards the original question posed at the outset.......anyway, I wasn't 'pointing' anything, merely echoing what's been said in this and many other threads by many 'SEO' companies. To the specific points you made....

1. You've misunderstood the point.........the approach adopted by many SEO companies, and one that appears to get mixed backing here, is one that seems to be based on the exception (rougle clients) rather than the norm (good clients) My point........The majority of clients shouldn't have to suffer (be offered no guarantees, be expected to pay large upfront deposits, etc, etc) because of a small percentage of poor ones.

2.Fair point....I don't. If you do then fair enough, I can only hope you provide each other reasonable and fair T&Cs

3.The evidence in this and other threads would suggest the opposite......refusal by many to provide guarantees for work done and an expectation of receiving significant upfront payments would suggest otherwise. Would you pay a mechanic BEFORE your car was fixed? They have to buy in parts, they have to spend time completing the repairs.......don't SEO companies get this?!!:cursing:

4. Again, you've misunderstood the point........Yes these are deliverables but the 'guarantee' bit underwrites the deliverables. In simple terms, if my site is at position 35 for my primary keyword before you do anything, I'd want a guarantee that it would improve by a certain amount within a certain period of time after the SEO work was done / had a chance to kick in. If the performance didin't meet the agreed level then I wouldn't expect to pay the full amount.

5. What's ridiculous is that an SEO company can't demonstrate results they've acheved with other clients and use that to project results for a new client then stand-by that projection with a guarantee. Its not difficult, especially if they understand the Google algorithms so well. Don't SEO companies use basic business forecasting tools and models?

6. Both Heinz and HP definitely have clearly defined standards AND clearly defined definitions of quality and therefore consumers can make their bean selection safe in the knowledge neither will kill them. I think this is where the fart bit comes in............Are you saying that there are no quality standards in SEO and because of this the quality of SEO work can't be defined, let alone guaranteed?

7. You're contradicting yourself..........you seemed to be quite certain about the Google algorithm earlier so if you have this in-depth knowledge combined with a clear view of historical results for previous clients and guarantees are based on deliverables that woulod be determened by what is and isn't possible, why are guarantees not an option exactly?

8. You're contradicting yourself again.........if you CAN demonstrate positive impact then you have, by definition, been able to measure it. So, if you can measure performance AND demonstrate positive impact, and can do this for a number of clients, why can't you say with any confidence or guarantees what positive impact you can bring to a new client......positive impact being improved SERPS, higher conversions, reduced bounce rate etc.

How can you say they are accountable if they refuse to offer any guarantees? With accountability comes consequences if results aren't acheived. If the SEO company has already taken payments in advance and doesn't offer any guarantees to the client what exactly are the consequences for the SEO company? The client says they're shit? The client never uses them again? The SEO company suffers no pain at all despite having taken money off the client......its just wrong.

I disagree completely, on two points. Firstly I DO have a good working knowledge of the industry, probably as much as many 'so called' SEO companies claim to have, and secondly, this post and many others was aimed at potential SEO cutomers NOT SEO companies and so I have an obligation to voice my constructive criticisms and to shine a bright light on an industry, which by its own admission, doesn't have a very good reputation amongst consumers.

Feedback is a gift.......what you (SEO Companies) choose to do with it is entirely up to you........you can ignore it, you can attempt to talk over it in the hope it will go away and your own views will be adopted or, just maybe, you can choose to engage potential customers more and actually listen and act on the feedback they provide.

 

[stuarty]

One thing I would ask though, read my last post

I just have...

1) Improved performance in SERPS - I would insist on an improvement in performance equal to the average of what they've previously acheived for other clients

2) Improved performance in site traffic resulting from generic searches - I would insist on an improvement in performance equal to the average of what they've previously acheived for other clients

3) Improved performance in bounce rates - I would insist on an improvement in performance equal to the average of what they've previously acheived for other clients

4) Improved performance in site conversions (as previously agreed) - I would insist on an improvement in performance equal to the average of what they've previously acheived for other clients

I beleive this model does exactly that and more importantly, give the client a level of confidence and comfort.

I would strongly urge anyone not to suggest this model to an SEO in a service level agreement otherwise you could be wide open to being ripped off.

"insist on performance equal to the average of what they've achieved for other clients"

You should never expect any SEO to perform to an average because at best you'll get average results and at worst you'll get ripped off!

The statement above - there is no way you can target the performance of your website based on average figures several other websites - how can anyone obtain an average from a plumbers, joiners and hairdressers website competing in different industries?

Furthermore, there's no way on earth any SEO should divulge any client's statistics. This is confidential unless the client allows them to be made public. However the chances of every client agreeing to this is extremely slim as it will divulge keyphrases amongst other information. By virtue of this a rogue SEO could tell you any "averages" they want and you could never verify this, which means they could abuse all the above points in the following ways;

1) All a rogue SEO has to do is to show you some clients in low competition industries and make an average from this. They target your website at this low level and you would be none the wiser.

2) What exactly is a generic search? You need keyword research to determine the best phrases for your website.You cannot derive this from an average of sites accross different industries. A rogue SEO could interpret "generic" any way it wants and this is the scam where rogue SEOs guarantee you a page one ranking. They optimise your site for phrases that no one targets - e.g. your brand name or some esoteric term from your website.

Your website is not average and neither are your keyphrases.

3) This is wide open to abuse. You are not entitled to see any clients bounce rates so a rogue SEO could show you any figure they want and work to this average.

4) Again this is wide open to abuse. You are not entitled to see any other company's conversion rates so a rogue SEO could easily tell you an average rate that would be very easy to achieve and you would never be able to prove it if you were not satisfied with the results.

 

[PeterHoggan]

That's like saying when I go into a restaurant I want a verbal guarantee that my food will be delivered, I don't as I understand, as well as the waiters that if it doesn't appear it's a fail and I won't stay or come back!

You might not be overly happy if food cost thousands of pounds and you had to pay a substantial deposit before you ate. What then if the food was nothing like it was described in the menu and the establishment refused to take responsibility or be accountable?

 

[stuarty]

I actually think that the word that's confusing everyone and causing distress is the word "guarantee" as it immediately makes anyone who has to sell SEO think of "guaranteeing position 1" (a common request!). Maybe we could all be nice to each other again if it was reworded to:

"...what sort of deliverables would you expect as the goals of your particular campaign would be met? "

Just a thought!

I agree Lynne. The problem as you probably have discovered is interpretation of the word. I know of you guys and the good work you do and presume that you get the same worries from clients that we do. It's always the same story - read it on a forum or heard from someone's grannies, cousin who red SEO for dummies told me. We're all being bashed left right and centre by hobby SEOs who claim to have knowledge but no real world experience. It's this stuff that makes life harder for companies like ours who have to spend an hour more than neccessary explaining stuff to clients who just want to make money from their websites.

We do offer guarantees actually and have many happy clients as a result but these were drafted legally to protect both parties. We spent thousands on contract documents that include those guarantees but there's no way on earth I'm going to divulge them on here so that folk can get the info for free. We do everything by the book and back it up by our results. If clients aren't happy then we have clauses and breakpoints where we can sort things out. We rarely have to use these and we focus on doing a good job.

All the rubbish press gets blown way out of proportion and no one ever sticks up for SEOs. The strong ethical SEOs have nothing to hide and do very well but its still poor when all our good work and results gets lost amongst all the bad press.

 

[PeterHoggan]

We do offer guarantees actually and have many happy clients as a result but these were drafted legally to protect both parties. We spent thousands on contract documents that include those guarantees but there's no way on earth I'm going to divulge them on here so that folk can get the info for free.

Incongruent doesn’t even come close!

I don't understand why you would argue against guarantees when you provide them yourself and have many happy clients based on them. I don't understand why would you so harshly reprimand me for merely mentioning "guarantee" when you have spent thousands on contract documents that include guarantees? Nor do I understand the underlying motive of your earlier posts, I had thought it was a genuine point of view and although contrary to my own I did respect it at the time.

 

[polr]

...I know of you guys and the good work you do and presume that you get the same worries from clients that we do.

Thanks Stuarty. We offer client testimonials and have several clients who are happy to be contact by potential clients (without giving out actual figures etc) and that's good enough for me. As they say, the proof is in the pudding, and if you have clients who stay with you and recommend you then you're doing a good job!

Anyway, must dash, I've a meeting with a client who I have promised I'd get to no. 1 by tomorrow if he gives me one million dollars. Muhahaha Muhahaha :lol:

 

[stuarty]

Incongruent doesn’t even come close!

I don't understand why you would argue against guarantees when you provide them yourself and have many happy clients based on them. I don't understand why would you so harshly reprimand me for merely mentioning "guarantee" when you have spent thousands on contract documents that include guarantees? Nor do I understand the underlying motive of your earlier posts, I had thought it was a genuine point of view and although contrary to my own I did respect it at the time.

Incongruent?

Did I say which guarantees? No.

All the stuff I said peviously I stand by. We give no guarantees on results or anything search engine related because we cant. You dont know what's in
our contracts or sla agreements.

We spent money getting these done and the legal advice in these tells us what guarantees we [/can] offer. These are very specific.

If anything I've said feels like a reprimand then im sorry you feel this way but remember thats it's the clients who hook onto the word guarantee on rankings, results etc. If it's given by an SEO then that gives them a get out clause for not paying and walking away. There are rogue clients as well as rogue SEOs and SEOs need to protect themselves too.


Sorry but our legal docs are not up for discussion.




All the stuff I mentioned before I stand by and we don't offer guarantees

 

[stuarty]

apologies...last post was from my iPhone which bombed out on me and was unfinished

continuing on....

...All the stuff I mentioned before I stand by and we don't offer guarantees on search engine performance or results because we cant. We do offer other guarantees and as I've already said these were determined by lawyers as something we can do. But I stress - they are not guarantees on results from search engines. Apologies for any confusion.

Thanks Stuarty. We offer client testimonials and have several clients who are happy to be contact by potential clients (without giving out actual figures etc) and that's good enough for me. As they say, the proof is in the pudding, and if you have clients who stay with you and recommend you then you're doing a good job!

Anyway, must dash, I've a meeting with a client who I have promised I'd get to no. 1 by tomorrow if he gives me one million dollars. Muhahaha Muhahaha

I agree! We have a few testimonials on our site but we're much happier if a potential client asks us to contact our clients and most of our clients are happy to recommend us and talk to potential clients - all this backed up by results.

Only 1 million dollars - geez you guys are cheap. I hope you got 95% up front!

 

[PeterHoggan]

Stuart, this thread is about what potential SEO clients would expect or want by way of a guarantee. It is not about guaranteeing results which everyone agrees is wrong. It’s not about your legal docs, it’s not about your views on guarantees it is about listening to potential customers and gaining an understanding of their views/concerns on the subject.

If your legal docs are not up for discussion stop discussing them and perhaps give the intended audience of this thread the opportunity to speak. The time to draw conclusions and comment would surely be at the end of the conversation based on the views/concerns posted.

 

[stuarty]

If your legal docs are not up for discussion stop discussing them

I wasn't discussing them :confused1:

 

[Employment Law Services]

Stuart, this thread is about what potential SEO clients would expect or want by way of a guarantee. It is not about guaranteeing results which everyone agrees is wrong. It’s not about your legal docs, it’s not about your views on guarantees it is about listening to potential customers and gaining an understanding of their views/concerns on the subject.

If your legal docs are not up for discussion stop discussing them and perhaps give the intended audience of this thread the opportunity to speak. The time to draw conclusions and comment would surely be at the end of the conversation based on the views/concerns posted.

Here Here Peter!! Perhaps if other SEO companies spent more time listening to what their customers want/expect and less time talking over their views and/or refusing to hear then act on what many, many people say about SEO, they wouldn't be held in such poor regard by so many people.

Everytime there's an 'SEO' related post asking for the views of potential customers it gets overrun by the SEO companies themselves...........its encouraging that you made this and other posts and are keen to engage potential customers and ask them for their views..........its disappointing that other SEO companies would rather force their views on everyone instead and incredible that they hold the views of their potential customers in such low regard.

Net Promoter Score.................look it up..............the voice of the customer is paramount and companies that choose to ignore the views of their customers / potential customers do so at their peril!

 

[peteark]

I have already stated that I found the views of clients and other providers very interesting but at this stage I was personally unwilling to change the terms of my business,

The best yardstick would be to give an honest assessment of the current state of play

1. Have I lost out on clients due to offering no guarantees and charging a set monthly amount, 1 month payable in advance,

Most certainly yes.

2. Are clients happy with my payment terms and have any suggested a revamp or moving towards PFP.

I have supplied some kind of service to over 40 businesses in the past 12 months, to date no one has raised an objection or made any kind of payment related query.

In my situation would it not be better to tick over as I am as I have no plans for major expansion, certainly not in the SEO field.