Should you pay for SEO before you see any results?

[Employment Law Services]

(Apologies, hadn't realised this was a 7 page thread and that all my points have probably already been made!)

I have to disagree that PFP is a good model in SEO.

So much of so called SEO is down to what the client does. It's also very difficult to define performance - as with most performance metrics, the chances are they will not be as closely aligned with the clients objectives as they think they are. PFP can actually promote black hat techniques that focus on quick buck profitability.



The vast majority of professional services are not results based - output maybe, but rarely results. Do Accenture or PWC get paid for performance, no they don't (there may be some form of performance bonus, but the bulk is a day rate fee).

Take for example a solicitor - why is that we think of the no win, no fee solicitors as somehow second tier to those that charge fees?

In my view SEO should be paid for on the basis of time and materials. What's missing from many SEO offerings at the moment is transparency - just what exactly are you doing for me Mr.SEO practitioner? Answer - techy smoke and mirrors. Pay for tangible activities that can be demonstrated and explained to you, just don't go off signing blank cheques.

Should one pay for SEO - now there's a question?!

My company provides professional services so I can certainly see your point but I have to say that there is growing pressure for providers such as ourselves to be held more accountable against results opposed to simply paid for 'time' and this definitely applies to the likes of PCW and Accenture. If you look at the basic principals of Six/Lean Sigma (something which we utilise during consultancy project work we do) it is based on delivering measurable, tangible cost benefits as an output.

SEO may be slightly different but as I mentioned many posts back, there are certain aspects that are clearly measurable/tangible so surely it makes sense that this should be paid for in arrears and NOT in advance and the 'performance' aspect could easily be measured against the original commitment.......eg. over 2 months SEO company will secure X amount of backlinks to Client website - you do the work I pay upon completion.

 

[Tim Barlow]

Regarding the Kazza post. I'd like to welcome Kazza to the forum and say thanks for a stimulating post. It was a touch personal but I think some of the points made are interesting. I hope she/he will come back and respond to the counter points and ignore the personal criticism.

(It's also interesting how a post that is negative about you, invariably turns into positive marketing for you. Negative feedback can be gold dust!)

 

[Tim Barlow]

there are certain aspects that are clearly measurable/tangible so surely it makes sense that this should be paid for in arrears and NOT in advance and the 'performance' aspect could easily be measured against the original commitment.......eg. over 2 months SEO company will secure X amount of backlinks to Client website - you do the work I pay upon completion.

Agree almost 100%. The only thing I would question is that securing X amount of backlinks is a metric that is less clearly aligned to clients goals than they probably think. We all know it's about quality links, its difficult to measure that exactly though.

The not in advance bit I side with but there are good reasons for money up front in certain circumstances so i don't think it should be seen as an automatic warning sign of bad service/product.

 

[Tim Barlow]

It was a touch personal

I'd like to change that to "It was too personal"

 

[RedEvo]

Just a quick thank you to the people who said nice things about me following my 'mauling' at the hands of Kazza

d

 

[Boxby]

Re PWC and accenture.

In the vast majortity of instances the client doesn't pay a day rate, but a fixed job rate. The team in hand have a budget, they have a deliverable, they are tasked with acheiving that deliverable within the budget. And difference is recorded as an over/under charge, the firm usually take the knock, and the seniors/managers have to account to the partner for the reasons justifying that difference. If they are client caused then the client may in some instances be billed.

Although the billing is calculated on the hourly rates, it is only in rare situations that the client actually pays the time incurred.

The difference with PWC, accenture etc, is that the deliverable isn't open to (too much) interpretation. A corporate finance deal is either ready on time or not, an audit is either completed by the reporting deadline or not. With SEO, measuing the deliverable is harder, partic when the decent guys won't/can't guarantee a result. (No company would pay for an audit on the basis that it may or may not be complete.)


Maybe SEO could use a similar model?

 

[Employment Law Services]

Agree almost 100%. The only thing I would question is that securing X amount of backlinks is a metric that is less clearly aligned to clients goals than they probably think. We all know it's about quality links, its difficult to measure that exactly though.

The not in advance bit I side with but there are good reasons for money up front in certain circumstances so i don't think it should be seen as an automatic warning sign of bad service/product.

Totally agree about 'quality links' being the metric opposed to just the number .......I guess this is something that could easily be clarified in the beginning.

I certainly don't disagree with paying some sort of upfront deposit, just think it should be reasonable and not substantial.

Boxby you're spot on in your observation about Accenture / PWC working on a 'project' basis opposed to a day rate - we do a very similar thing and also work to clear and measurable deliverables which on their own can form the basis of 'success critieria' for the overall project.

 

[RedEvo]

Boxby you're spot on in your observation about Accenture / PWC working on a 'project' basis opposed to a day rate

But how do they calculate the project cost? Surely based on a day rate or something very close to it? Or do they purely use value based charging?

d

 

[Tim Barlow]

Accenture / PWC working on a 'project' basis opposed to a day rate

Good point but a lot of the work will not be as defined as you suggest and they will be paid for things like changing a company culture or introducing new ways of working which will be a lot less definable in terms of scope and the ultimate deliverable so it will have to include a breakdown of outputs that will hopefully have the inteded result (that "result" being a slightly murky concept).

A better example maybe PR companies. Do many of them get paid on performance, or do they just get sacked if they don't meet expectations?

 

[Boxby]

But how do they calculate the project cost? Surely based on a day rate or something very close to it? Or do they purely use value based charging?

d

Bit of both. The first year for a new client, will be based on the length of time & costs that it takes to do a similar audit, and also, strongly based on what the client was paying the previous auditor/advisor, and what the current firm has had to quote to get the contract.

One thing with these firms though is that the price is calculate before the work starts. The fee is agreed. the budget set. And the client has to be pretty awful to be billed anything in excess of that fee. Whether the client gets VFM - well, that sends us straight back to the OP

The deliverable always has an end though. And it seems with SEO/SEM that there never seems to be a defined end point. And I think that is one of the issues, clients feel that they are expected for pay £x for an indefinite period.

There are few other industries where you pay £x for a undefined deliverable for an indefinite period.


(And please note, that I totally understand and agree with SEO/SEMs that refuse to define a deliverable as a specific position by a specific time. When google algos change 400+ a year. I would NEVER place any work with an SEO/SEM that said thay'd get me position 1 in 30 days!)

 

[Employment Law Services]

Where this can get really interesting is when both vendor and client agree to make at least one of the project deliverables the actual cost-savings the business will realise (which is where applying lean/six sigma to the exercise comes into it) and then agree on a PFP based payment matrix (with minimum and maximums written in) which pays the vendor based on delivering all of the deliverables, including the previously agreed cost-savings.

The minimums ensure the vendor breaks even and the maximum provides the opperchancity for them to generate a good profit but combining both also holds their feet to the fire in terms of delivering quality end to end.

Company culture can be measured through a series of employee surveys and revised performance appraisals that also measure behaviours which are aligned with the new culture being introduced to the business and so 'success' could be defined as an increase of X in the demonstration of key behaviours as measured in appraisals done pre-launch, mid-launch and post launch and key aspects within the employee satisfaction survey could be identified and measured in the same way to set targets against which success is measured.

 

[Tim Barlow]

Company culture can be measured through a series of employee surveys and revised performance appraisals that also measure behaviours which are aligned with the new culture being introduced to the business and so 'success' could be defined as an increase of X in the demonstration of key behaviours as measured in appraisals done pre-launch, mid-launch and post launch and key aspects within the employee satisfaction survey could be identified and measured in the same way to set targets against which success is measured.

Now this is an interesting way of doing things. Would you expect 100% of your fee though to be based on such soft metrics.

In SEO there are lots of proxies such as ranks, sales, visitors numbers, brand awareness, repeat orders etc etc that are measurable but not necessarily 100% the result of the work of the SEO practitioner.

 

[Boxby]

Can I ask, as a potential client, how often SEO/SEM companie are in contact with their clients, and whether they communicate/discuss stuff which isn't obviously/immediately SEO?

It seems to me that virtually everything that an online business does could potentially impact on SEO. You can hire a PR company for PR, but that will feed through into articles etc published online, therefore links, etc, so does this then feed into SEO?

Even things like stocklines, if you decide that you're going to start selling some of the most sought after stocklines, and therefore competitive search terms, won't this impact on your rankings?

And back to that old adage about taking a horse to water but cannae make it drink - do SEOs get involved in dropped baskets, poor conversions etc. Or does SEO stop when the visitors get to the website?

Do people talk to SEOs about business direction and strategy? partic at the planning/before they do it stage? Do SEOs see this as part of their remit?

 

[PeterHoggan]

do SEOs get involved in dropped baskets, poor conversions etc. Or does SEO stop when the visitors get to the website?

Getting visitors to a website is just the start. SEO necessarily involves all aspects of the clients site i.e. performance optimisation, usability, accessibility, copywriting, effective CTA's and USP's, conversions, customer acquisition costs...

 

[peteark]

SEO is as transparent as you want it to be

On-site optimisation is generally keyword based, to do this effectively you need to have an understanding of the clients, wishes and business model. Last week I spent 2 days optimising a french gite site, we exchanged around 70 emails, plenty of visibility there

Off-site optimisation is generally based around link building, this can be measured by, incoming emails, yahoo site explorer, Google and ultimately SERPS.

If you talk in riddles and a client does not hear or see anything, chances are you picked the wrong company.

I have just noticed something on a new site I am working on

It has some tracking code, from the old PPC management company, the hidden links are do-follow, they finished 4 months ago and did not remove the code when they finished. This same company keeps popping up on my radar, the cowboys....lol

 

[peteark]

Do people talk to SEOs about business direction and strategy? partic at the planning/before they do it stage? Do SEOs see this as part of their remit?

For me the opposite, I speak to my clients almost daily, generally related to the direction and improvements of their business. Continual improvement is a serious business. An email to a client 10 mins ago was based around adding content building mechanisms that capture the imagination of the visitor, rather than the same old Wordpress blog that dies a death after 3 posts.

 

[PeterHoggan]

Do people talk to SEOs about business direction and strategy? partic at the planning/before they do it stage? Do SEOs see this as part of their remit?

Personally, I believe this is the key to a successful SEO campaign. Without a clear understanding of where the client is now and where he wants to go we would be working in the dark.

 

[Employment Law Services]

Now this is an interesting way of doing things. Would you expect 100% of your fee though to be based on such soft metrics.

In SEO there are lots of proxies such as ranks, sales, visitors numbers, brand awareness, repeat orders etc etc that are measurable but not necessarily 100% the result of the work of the SEO practitioner.

This is where the minimum / maximum comes in - fees at a minimum level would be 'break even' andwould therefore adress any 'soft' deliverables.

TBH though, whilst the concept of measuring company culture may suggest that metrics are 'soft', the reality is far from it.........very specifc, 'hard' metrics can be defined and measured provided you know what you're doing.

In an SEO context its possibly more difficult but I'd have thought equally 'hard' metrics could be agreed......eg. both parties agree a definition of a 'quality site' to which backlinks should be added and then the hard metric for the SEO company would be XX amount of quality backlinks provided. An equally clear metric could be submission to XX amount of quality directories, production of an LSI resurce library, production of XX amount of articles for the LSI resource library, etc, etc.........(I'm not an SEO guru but hopefuly you get my point)

For me its all about agreeing specific, measurable, achievable, realisitic and time-sensitive deliverables then identifying quantifiable milestones that cover the project end to end. Then agree a minimum fee based on the delivery of milestone A and/or B and a maximum fee based on the delivery of the completed project, secure a reasonable deposit upfront (10-15%) and agree on staged invoicing/payment terms upon the completion of previously agreed milstones through to completion.

Done this way, the vendor has a financial commitment from the client that is big enough to demonstrate they're serious but small enough to avoid them feeling like they've paid for something that has yet to be delivered.

The vendor is also guaranteed to breakeven provided they deliver as set of previously agreed milestones but is also guaranteed to achieve their full profit margin if they fully complete the project AND the cleint is paying when they see evidence that the previously agreed deliverable have been produced.

Don't see why this can't work for an SEO model??

 

[Tim Barlow]

Don't see why this can't work for an SEO model??

I'm sure it could/does. PFP works too, its just sometimes it inadvertently incentivises the wrong effort. Your suggestions are much more to my liking!

 

[peteark]

You really could use many methods to run an SEO business

There is a problem debating this, most people on this forum are well versed in the ways of online business and to some extent SEO, although very few sit at the top of Google, not a dig just a fact. So the ideas discussed may seem to hold some merit but reality they don't work.

The reason they don't work....The average punter comes to an SEO provider because their site is under performing, of course they are interested in the clients I have provided services for, the techniques I use and the ranking of my own website, however their main question is always cost related. If they find my charges acceptable, most want to pass over the reigns and leave me to it and rightly so most have to spend their time running their own business.

A new client expects results and quickly, sort that out and the relationship prospers. If you can't they leave.

Introducing staged payments, PFP or any other scheme indicates I am untrustworthy, something that is certainly not the case. My lasted client, Jase dotwhat (dot) net signed up last week, he is a well educated 'techie' who asked for a free trial period, I said no and explained the terms of service, leaving him to decide, an hour to make his mind, paid a month in advance and I added his site to the pot. If I produce the goods he will stay a long term client, if I don't he will look elsewhere.

I believe simplification is a USP in SEO