PeterHoggan
New Member
Yes in the begining, we have changed the model slightly based on experience.
PeterHoggan
New Member
I've no idea what kind of SEO you doIt's my view that PFP would encourage some to employ dubious techniques to ensure they meet their obligation and get paid.
d
Any SEO could do that whether their business model is based on PFP or not!
RedEvo
New Member
A very interesting read, with many relevant points pertaining to the SME sector
I personally charge one month's fee, in advance, giving a client the option of stopping the service at any time. Clients want me to work on their projects, I have not forced myself onto them, as far as I am aware none have made an issue about the payment terms. I myself don't get excited if their payments are overdue, there has to be give and take on both sides. There are many companies in the SEO sector that hold clients to long standing contracts something I find highly irregular.
My main designer lost out on £12k last year developing a site for a company that went into administration, subsequently he now charges a 50% deposit.
One of the difficulties for designers is based around their clients inability to know exactly what they want, this can lead to multiple time consuming changes that are not factored in, (I see this daily)
I personally view online business in a similar way to the gold rush in San Francisco, people are blinded by untold riches, leaving designers and optimisers to facilitate their greed.
Of course in an ideal world no one pay anything until they were completely satisfied, the trouble is there are people out there who do not hold the same values, this has led to protectionism measures being introduced.
You then add cost to the pot, people wrongly presume, if they pay a lot of money for a product or service, they are receiving the best money can buy, this unfortunately is not always the case, the faceless and unregulated aspect of the net has always been friend to the con merchant.
Designers and optimisers worth their salt have to uphold their reputations, therefore they are unlikely to attempt to gain money under false pretence.
If I was a designer and person unfamiliar to me wanted to commission my services I would certainly charge a deposit, saying that I would do my best to impress as it could lead to a long standing relationship, with a possibility of generating work form recommendation.
If the general public were more educated and less hasty in their decision making they would have the ability to
Web Design
Check the build quality of the designers website
Check the designers portfolio
Speak to former clients
If they wanted a website to rank highly
Check the search engine ranking of portfolio sites
Check the ranking of the designers site
SEO
Check the ranking of the SEO providers website
Check the ranking of current and former clients
Speak to current and former clients
If you select the right company, you are less likely to have financial issues, I do find it strange that the above generally doesn't happens, maybe it is 'gold rush' fever
I personally charge one month's fee, in advance, giving a client the option of stopping the service at any time. Clients want me to work on their projects, I have not forced myself onto them, as far as I am aware none have made an issue about the payment terms. I myself don't get excited if their payments are overdue, there has to be give and take on both sides. There are many companies in the SEO sector that hold clients to long standing contracts something I find highly irregular.
My main designer lost out on £12k last year developing a site for a company that went into administration, subsequently he now charges a 50% deposit.
One of the difficulties for designers is based around their clients inability to know exactly what they want, this can lead to multiple time consuming changes that are not factored in, (I see this daily)
I personally view online business in a similar way to the gold rush in San Francisco, people are blinded by untold riches, leaving designers and optimisers to facilitate their greed.
Of course in an ideal world no one pay anything until they were completely satisfied, the trouble is there are people out there who do not hold the same values, this has led to protectionism measures being introduced.
You then add cost to the pot, people wrongly presume, if they pay a lot of money for a product or service, they are receiving the best money can buy, this unfortunately is not always the case, the faceless and unregulated aspect of the net has always been friend to the con merchant.
Designers and optimisers worth their salt have to uphold their reputations, therefore they are unlikely to attempt to gain money under false pretence.
If I was a designer and person unfamiliar to me wanted to commission my services I would certainly charge a deposit, saying that I would do my best to impress as it could lead to a long standing relationship, with a possibility of generating work form recommendation.
If the general public were more educated and less hasty in their decision making they would have the ability to
Web Design
Check the build quality of the designers website
Check the designers portfolio
Speak to former clients
If they wanted a website to rank highly
Check the search engine ranking of portfolio sites
Check the ranking of the designers site
SEO
Check the ranking of the SEO providers website
Check the ranking of current and former clients
Speak to current and former clients
If you select the right company, you are less likely to have financial issues, I do find it strange that the above generally doesn't happens, maybe it is 'gold rush' fever
PeterHoggan
New Member
I can't see how the PFP model would indicate black hat. Personaly I would put that down to a lack of morals of the incumbant SEO. OK so our opionions differ on this.
RedEvo
New Member
RedEvo
New Member
Adventurelife
New Member
Interesting discussion here.
I have worked on PFP a lot in the past and considering a project at the present on pure PFP. I am not a web designer or a SEO. I have a bit of history of turning round loss making companies, some I have down on a fixed fee with bonus at agreed stages of the return to profitability and some have been on a pure PFP where on agreed stages £ was paid or equity or a combination.
With PFP across all sectors it comes down to risk and reward and the view of the person or the companies view to risk and reward and the clients view of risk and reward.
With regard to clients I am always a bit surprised when they get taken in by poor SEO/Web companies
I am not an expert in accounting, marketing, logistics, IT, Seo etc etc but I know enough about each functional areas of my business to ensure that when I work with people in each discipline I know enough about what they do to enable me to make balanced judgments.
Every business is going to have different businesses terms depending on the risk and reward. My current businesses charge a small deposit on booking with us and full payment 10 days before the event.
The rest of the industry normally charge 30 days before the event. We offer a 100% refund if the clients are not happy and to date with well over 100000 clients going through the door is has been actioned once by a group of ( accountants and police who were taking the piss as they spent their break drunk instead of doing what they booked)
From contract customers and large corporates they pay on 30 days from invoice but you cannot work this way with the general public or you would go bust.
I read a lot ( because I am a sad git) about SEO/Web companies and their clients issues online and I do :001_smile: a lot.
Clients and potential clients need to to understand that this is just one part of your business and if you are serious about an online presence you need to learn a bit and then engage with good companies. It is also very , very easy to find good companies so no excuse for working with idiots.
The companies involved in the market place should be happy to walk away from clients on a regular basis if after discussions you know it is going to be a difficult journey.
On average I turn down about an extra 20% of my annual revenue each year because I know from discussions with the potential clients the journey has a high potential of being painful for us or them so better to point them in another direction.
If I ran a SEO/Web company I would be holding 1 day education discussions for small businesses at least 4 times per year in the center of my target market. No selling or marketing just pure education as their does seem a lot of potential clients not that pro SEO/SEM which in these days I suspect is negative towards their business.
I have worked on PFP a lot in the past and considering a project at the present on pure PFP. I am not a web designer or a SEO. I have a bit of history of turning round loss making companies, some I have down on a fixed fee with bonus at agreed stages of the return to profitability and some have been on a pure PFP where on agreed stages £ was paid or equity or a combination.
With PFP across all sectors it comes down to risk and reward and the view of the person or the companies view to risk and reward and the clients view of risk and reward.
With regard to clients I am always a bit surprised when they get taken in by poor SEO/Web companies
I am not an expert in accounting, marketing, logistics, IT, Seo etc etc but I know enough about each functional areas of my business to ensure that when I work with people in each discipline I know enough about what they do to enable me to make balanced judgments.
Every business is going to have different businesses terms depending on the risk and reward. My current businesses charge a small deposit on booking with us and full payment 10 days before the event.
The rest of the industry normally charge 30 days before the event. We offer a 100% refund if the clients are not happy and to date with well over 100000 clients going through the door is has been actioned once by a group of ( accountants and police who were taking the piss as they spent their break drunk instead of doing what they booked)
From contract customers and large corporates they pay on 30 days from invoice but you cannot work this way with the general public or you would go bust.
I read a lot ( because I am a sad git) about SEO/Web companies and their clients issues online and I do :001_smile: a lot.
Clients and potential clients need to to understand that this is just one part of your business and if you are serious about an online presence you need to learn a bit and then engage with good companies. It is also very , very easy to find good companies so no excuse for working with idiots.
The companies involved in the market place should be happy to walk away from clients on a regular basis if after discussions you know it is going to be a difficult journey.
On average I turn down about an extra 20% of my annual revenue each year because I know from discussions with the potential clients the journey has a high potential of being painful for us or them so better to point them in another direction.
If I ran a SEO/Web company I would be holding 1 day education discussions for small businesses at least 4 times per year in the center of my target market. No selling or marketing just pure education as their does seem a lot of potential clients not that pro SEO/SEM which in these days I suspect is negative towards their business.
Gordon N
New Member
I really like that idea, certainly given me some food for thought! :thumbup1:
RedEvo
New Member
I've sacked a few clients over the years and walked away from potentially troublesome clients - sadly I've also missed the early signs and worked with one or two as well
but it's rare these days.Great advice from Adventurelife IMHO.
d
Hi everyone. I'm Karen. I've been a lurker for quite some time. Excuse my very first post on here. I understand that I have not built up any trust or respect yet on the forum but I felt strongly enough to post here on this thread. I work for a medium/large SEO and the hypocrisy being spouted out and the bad press about SEOs prompted me to comment.
On your website and many of your clients websites you have a link in the footer to "getclicky.com/37251". This is your affiliate link presumably? I don't know of any credible SEO companies that place their affiliate links on their clients websites! I hope for your sake that your clients know about this because this is one of the things that gives SEOs a bad name!
Really? You said that you take staged payments did you not?
This is absolute rubbish. Fees up front form part of a legally binding contract and commit both parties to the contract and enforce deliverables. Any upfront fee is accompanied by a written project/contract document detailing all the deliverables in the project. In the event of any non deliverable on either part then either party has recourse for action/mediation/negotiation of fees or deliverables.
The client paying for a percentage upfront ensures to the vendor that they are confident enough to commit to the project.
Do you seriously expect an SEO firm to get a client to the top of Google, paying staff wages in the process for the client to settle 30 days later - or even not at all? Do you think Google will intervene, remove their page 1 ranking because a client decides not to pay their bill and has ripped off the vendor?
So obviously no written contract for the client then? This is giving yourself a walk away get out of jail free card if you don't deliver - the client can't prove what was or wasn't agreed. This is yet another way that SEOs give the industry a bad name. No written agreement for the client from the vendor is one of the worst tricks in the book.
Again. Absolute rubbish.
Really?
Didn't you say earlier...
I'm not sure what to believe!
On your website and many of your clients websites you have a link in the footer to "getclicky.com/37251". This is your affiliate link presumably? I don't know of any credible SEO companies that place their affiliate links on their clients websites! I hope for your sake that your clients know about this because this is one of the things that gives SEOs a bad name!
Really? You said that you take staged payments did you not?
This is absolute rubbish. Fees up front form part of a legally binding contract and commit both parties to the contract and enforce deliverables. Any upfront fee is accompanied by a written project/contract document detailing all the deliverables in the project. In the event of any non deliverable on either part then either party has recourse for action/mediation/negotiation of fees or deliverables.
The client paying for a percentage upfront ensures to the vendor that they are confident enough to commit to the project.
Do you seriously expect an SEO firm to get a client to the top of Google, paying staff wages in the process for the client to settle 30 days later - or even not at all? Do you think Google will intervene, remove their page 1 ranking because a client decides not to pay their bill and has ripped off the vendor?
So obviously no written contract for the client then? This is giving yourself a walk away get out of jail free card if you don't deliver - the client can't prove what was or wasn't agreed. This is yet another way that SEOs give the industry a bad name. No written agreement for the client from the vendor is one of the worst tricks in the book.
Again. Absolute rubbish.
Really?
Didn't you say earlier...
I'm not sure what to believe!
Karen
As the owner of a small but growing SEO company, I would like to say I know Red from various forums, he offers everyone good quality understandable advice, something of a novelty these days.
In the days where every man and his dog offers some kind of design and optimisation service, I find it refreshing to find a company that can back their words up, on their own site.
How people structure their payment terms is a personal choice, I do agree that protectionism on both sides is wise.
What I find more important are the standard we as service providers operate under.
Forums are a well known feeding ground in the pursuit of clients, however one glance at a signature block or Google will highlight the class operators from the rest.
I will continue to follow Red as I feel he offers so much to the SEO sector, his payment terms are of no concern to me. You say he gives the SEO sector a bad name, I know for a fact this is not true.
As the owner of a small but growing SEO company, I would like to say I know Red from various forums, he offers everyone good quality understandable advice, something of a novelty these days.
In the days where every man and his dog offers some kind of design and optimisation service, I find it refreshing to find a company that can back their words up, on their own site.
How people structure their payment terms is a personal choice, I do agree that protectionism on both sides is wise.
What I find more important are the standard we as service providers operate under.
Forums are a well known feeding ground in the pursuit of clients, however one glance at a signature block or Google will highlight the class operators from the rest.
I will continue to follow Red as I feel he offers so much to the SEO sector, his payment terms are of no concern to me. You say he gives the SEO sector a bad name, I know for a fact this is not true.
RedEvo
New Member
Yup, hand up that's an affiliate link. In the last 12 months we have earned $75 from having it on our and our clients websites. We don't charge our clients for installing and giving them access to Clicky and they get a link to view the stats. If they ask for the affiliate link to be removed we remove it.
Yes, absolutely. In arrears for work done on 30 day terms. That is to say we never charge for anything we have not done.
We don't feel the need to take money off companies before we do work for them. I respect you have a different view.
Yes, absolutely. we never take up front payments but I respect your need to.
Don't recall saying we don't have a contract for large jobs but yes, often we are approached by people who need a quick job doing and we'll take that work on trust? I said we don't take payments up front. You don't need to take money off people to create a legally binding contract.
I'll assume you don't agree
Yup, really. Honestly, get over yourself.
Yes, we get a phone call or an email, we provide a quote, the client says yes, we do the work, we bill the client. Not sure what's so hard to understand....
Not sure what to say to that
d
I do have thing with embedded links on a website.
I will ask a client after a period of time if I can add my link, I explain this is for my benefit, not theirs, most say yeah put it up.
I don't think any optimisation or design company should add a do-follow hyperlink as a perk of the job. I have heard it argued that it is like a label on a piece of clothing, this would have some merit if the text was not hyperlinked.
Some companies are more up front and offer a client a small discount for the embedding of their sidewide link, this is totally acceptable.
As for adding affiliate clicky links, not something I would do myself and I can see why it would upset others in the sector.
I will ask a client after a period of time if I can add my link, I explain this is for my benefit, not theirs, most say yeah put it up.
I don't think any optimisation or design company should add a do-follow hyperlink as a perk of the job. I have heard it argued that it is like a label on a piece of clothing, this would have some merit if the text was not hyperlinked.
Some companies are more up front and offer a client a small discount for the embedding of their sidewide link, this is totally acceptable.
As for adding affiliate clicky links, not something I would do myself and I can see why it would upset others in the sector.
Scottish Business Owner
New Member
Karen,
Can I just say I find your comments incredible! You've came on our forum and had a dig at a well respected member and as you rightly point out given us no way to check your credibility.
I cant help but think there's some sort of hidden agenda here and wonder why you haven't registered as this SEO company you claim to be part of.
Having met with many people on the forum RedEvo is a person who is spoken about a great deal and is very well thought of both on these forums and i'm sure in wider circles.
Your comments will be seen for what they are i'm sure.
Can I just say I find your comments incredible! You've came on our forum and had a dig at a well respected member and as you rightly point out given us no way to check your credibility.
I cant help but think there's some sort of hidden agenda here and wonder why you haven't registered as this SEO company you claim to be part of.
Having met with many people on the forum RedEvo is a person who is spoken about a great deal and is very well thought of both on these forums and i'm sure in wider circles.
Your comments will be seen for what they are i'm sure.
PeterHoggan
New Member
Kazza, Who are you? If you have any substance drop the anonymity.
PeterHoggan
New Member
Thanks peteark, that is so funny.
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EmployEasily Legal Services
Karen - I'm not a web designer or an SEO company and therefore am looking at this from the perspective of an SEO / Web Design Client.
When you make comments like "fees upfront form part of a legally binding contract" and "In the event of any non deliverable on either part then either party has recourse for action/mediation/negotiation of fees or deliverables." it completely and utterly infuriates me and makes me think that you have never been in position where you have commissioned work critical to your business, only to be told by your chosen Vendor that a substantial upfront payment is required before they will do anything or demonstrate any sort of results AND have never been involved in a contractual dispute with a company who have completely failed to meet their 'legally binding obligations' after taking a substantial amount of money off you upfront.
It would have been a good idea for you to consider your position from the perspective of a potential client and for you to have read and digested the thoughtful and insightful posts made by other forum members before bluntly dismissing everyone's views on the subject.
If you think the existence of a 'legally binding contract' is enough to 'enforce deliverables' or is enough to recover previously paid fees when the SEO/Web Designer fails to deliver, you need to seriously do a REALITY check!!
FACT: If a Vendor doesn't get paid they can deploy a number of tactics to get their money........debt collectors, etc and can even insure against bad debt, so whilst there may be a risk it is certainly manageable and 'relatively' low.
FACT: A client company with a dispute is only able to pursue the vendor via a solicitor which, depending on how far it goes, could end up costing them thousands with no guarantee of ever getting their money back. So for the Client - a difficutl to manage, high risk scenario if the Vendor insists on a substantial upfront payment.
The odds, in terms of recovering funds, are substantially stacked in favour of the SEO/Web Design companies, most of who will have PI insurance to cover any legal claims made against them.
For a small business to even attempt to recover losses, they would need at least £10,000 spare to cover legal expenses and winning a court action is no guarantee of actually getting your money back. You could still be chasing after a year and may never even see a penny.
For all of the reasons I've stated I think it's only reasonable and fair for the Vendor to shoulder the risks by only seeking a reasonable deposit (10-15%) prior to undertaking any work and future payments only when tangible evidence of agreed deliverables are provided.
Most of the guys that have posted in this thread are in 'general agreement' with that approach and as far as I'm concerned, any company that insists on substantial upfront payments is taking the piss and certainly won't be getting my business or my recommendation.
Tim Barlow
New Member
(Apologies, hadn't realised this was a 7 page thread and that all my points have probably already been made!)
I have to disagree that PFP is a good model in SEO.
So much of so called SEO is down to what the client does. It's also very difficult to define performance - as with most performance metrics, the chances are they will not be as closely aligned with the clients objectives as they think they are. PFP can actually promote black hat techniques that focus on quick buck profitability.
The vast majority of professional services are not results based - output maybe, but rarely results. Do Accenture or PWC get paid for performance, no they don't (there may be some form of performance bonus, but the bulk is a day rate fee).
Take for example a solicitor - why is that we think of the no win, no fee solicitors as somehow second tier to those that charge fees?
In my view SEO should be paid for on the basis of time and materials. What's missing from many SEO offerings at the moment is transparency - just what exactly are you doing for me Mr.SEO practitioner? Answer - techy smoke and mirrors. Pay for tangible activities that can be demonstrated and explained to you, just don't go off signing blank cheques.
Should one pay for SEO - now there's a question?!
I have to disagree that PFP is a good model in SEO.
So much of so called SEO is down to what the client does. It's also very difficult to define performance - as with most performance metrics, the chances are they will not be as closely aligned with the clients objectives as they think they are. PFP can actually promote black hat techniques that focus on quick buck profitability.
The vast majority of professional services are not results based - output maybe, but rarely results. Do Accenture or PWC get paid for performance, no they don't (there may be some form of performance bonus, but the bulk is a day rate fee).
Take for example a solicitor - why is that we think of the no win, no fee solicitors as somehow second tier to those that charge fees?
In my view SEO should be paid for on the basis of time and materials. What's missing from many SEO offerings at the moment is transparency - just what exactly are you doing for me Mr.SEO practitioner? Answer - techy smoke and mirrors. Pay for tangible activities that can be demonstrated and explained to you, just don't go off signing blank cheques.
Should one pay for SEO - now there's a question?!
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