Taking Photo's of brands/Copyright etc

[beedee]

As always the picture you're trying to paint is the one that suits you.

No, I am not painting any picture. I am pointing people to what you have written in the past. It is for them to judge who is being abusive and I don't think it will be that difficult for any reasonable minded person.

 

[Scottish Business Owner]

Geez I've missed a lot today I will apologise upfront as to be quite honest I've had a shit day and my response may appear quite blunt.

The main issue regarding defamation is frankly a nonsense. beedee if you feel you want to pursue this then you will find my full contact details including my address over on our blog. I'll happily pass your concerns onto my solicitor.

I'm not going to get into the technical aspects of copyright etc because Matt is far more qualified than I am to give an answer.

My main issue here is people from another so-called respective forum wading in and making silly comments about the professional nature of this forum. I'll be honest i'm not into censorship purely because someone doesn't like what someone else has said. It's a big bad world out there! You do have a choice though, you dont have to visit this forum.

I'm not the biggest fan of the FSB at the best of times so can I suggest you keep yourself and your cronies on your own forum.

 

[Former Member 1]

No, I am not painting any picture. I am pointing people to what you have written in the past. It is for them to judge who is being abusive and I don't think it will be that difficult for any reasonable minded person.

Oh you're painting pictures allright... Abusive??..... :laugh: Reasonable minded?

What's "reasonable"? Being properly trained and qualified and operating WITHIN the law. OR (deliberately or otherwise) stealing someone else's intellectual property then squealing like a staked pig when that someone comes knocking at your door asking for why you've been working OUTSIDE the law?

What's an abuse? Spending years at college and in training to do a job and do it properly? Or just short-circuiting that by setting yourself up as a self-appointed 'expert' when you only know half the job?

Is it reasonable when someone's in trouble with the law, to encourage them to wriggle and squirm like a worm on a hook INSTEAD of seeking proper legal advice?

Now; don't get me wrong. I've no real problems with the self-taught providing their education is complete and they know what they're doing. But the fact is it's not reasonable or even competent for any professional (qualified or not) creative to be sitting with uncleared IP in their own portfolio. It's BREATHTAKINGLY unacceptable and WHOLLY unprofessional for that to be passed to a client. And an absolute abuse of that client's trust and custom.

It's not my fault if other people have broken the law, have authored their own misfortune and exposed their own incompetence to the world by bleating about it in public.

Oh and Beedee HAVE you paid for that logo Tom asked about?

 

[beedee]

My main issue here is people from another so-called respective forum wading in and making silly comments about the professional nature of this forum.

You are just plain wrong to describe this as "wading in". I was notified by a third party that my reputation was being abused in this forum. What I was doing was responding to this tirade of abuse directed at me personally by one of your members. Am I not entitled to defend myself against his self centred nonsense? He described me as a fake, a fraud and a flim flam artist. Am I to stand by and allow him to hide behind your forum while doing this?

Regarding forum criticism, have a look again at what he says about the FSB. Now that is what I call forum criticism and you guys seem happy enough to allow that to pass.

Oh and Beedee HAVE you paid for that logo Tom asked about?

Who is this Tom that you keep going on about?

Regarding payment for the icon, I am assuming you mean the one that caused my original problem. No, I have not paid for it and I have no intention of paying for it unless a court of law says I must. Since I have heard nothing from the claimants for almost two years I would think that is now unlikely.

If you want know more about this you can find really valuable information in the FSB forum where we have a qualified attorney advising us. You can also read the article that will be published in the Guardian tomorrow.

It's not my fault if other people have broken the law, have authored their own misfortune and exposed their own incompetence to the world by bleating about it in public.

Are you publicly calling me incompetent or are you going to continue your campaign through innuendo and implication?

 

[stugster]

Beedee,

I think you need to learn to read mate. You quoted Matt's post with your own answer to the question you pose:

"if other people"


Had he been addressing you personally, I'm sure Matt would have used common vocabulary such as: "he" "him" "that person" (rather than the plural of the word, people),and maybe, just maybe, if he was addressing you, he'd use this new technique whereby we refer to each other with this thing called a name. In your case, it would most likely be "beedee".

Until he does this, I doubt he's talking about you, directly.

 

[beedee]

And the band played ...

 

[TomB]

Beedee,

I am the tom that Matt has referred and the question is, did you pay for the icon in question before you used it?

Easy yes or no question

 

[Former Member 1]

You are just plain wrong to describe this as "wading in". I was notified by a third party that my reputation was being abused in this forum. What I was doing was responding to this tirade of abuse directed at me personally by one of your members. Am I not entitled to defend myself against his self centred nonsense? He described me as a fake, a fraud and a flim flam artist. Am I to stand by and allow him to hide behind your forum while doing this?

YOU, not me YOU are the one who decided these comments were directed at you personally. You have already been told the comments were general in nature. But I have no difficulty in saying that this would be my personal and professinal opinion of ANYONE masquerading as a creative professional who did not know about or understand the more obscure, but still basic aspects of professional practise. That of course includes (but is not limited to) IPR management.

What anyone recognises of themselves in these comments is not within my control, nor is it my concern.

Who is this Tom that you keep going on about?

It's right up there at the start of the thread. You know perfectly well that TomB asked if you had paid for the Icon on your website. You attempted to deflect that question and it's taken several repetitions of it to get an answer from you.

Regarding payment for the icon, I am assuming you mean the one that caused my original problem. No, I have not paid for it and I have no intention of paying for it unless a court of law says I must. Since I have heard nothing from the claimants for almost two years I would think that is now unlikely.

So, you now admit on a public forum that you have (or have had) Intellectual Property in use which belongs to someone else, and you haven't paid for it! You go on to qualify this by virtue of the fact that the claimant hasn't asserted their rights for almost two years. Well done!

In short, you have just admitted operating outside the law. Let me ask you directly; do you think that was the act of a competent professional?

I am sure many reasonable people will be drawing their own conclusions as to your integrity and professionalism as a result of what YOU have just admitted.

 

[Former Member 1]

If you want know more about this you can find really valuable information in the FSB forum where we have a qualified attorney advising us. You can also read the article that will be published in the Guardian tomorrow.

The opinion of "qualified attorney" from the U.S. has no bearing on UK law and is of limited value. Despite what Bedee might prefer to think the issue that will ultimately see court action is that of copyright infringement compounded by flagrancy in the form of refusal to pay when an opportunity was presented.

Much of what appears on the thread Bedee promotes is VERY dangerous. And (for the umpteenth time) the ONLY sound advice that CAN be given responsibly is that if you are in this position you MUST seek properly qualified legal advice.

Are you publicly calling me incompetent or are you going to continue your campaign through innuendo and implication?

There is no 'campaign', and you might want to read up on the legal term "innuendo". Again; in the interests of clarity, it is not within my control that you chose to ascribe these comments to yourself. I merely promote what is a basic level of professional competence. Again, I'll repeat that the ONLY comment I have directed at you is.....

"it's dominated by one character who, in my professional opinion, is not trained or competent to comment on what he chooses to pontificate on and seems hell bent of pursing a personal agenda which is (again; in my professional opinion) dangerous to all who align themselves with it."

As you saw fit to question my qualifications, which (paraphrasing slightly from what I posted elsewhere) are good enough for one of the world's leading academic bodies. Perhaps you will be good enough to explain what DOES qualify to pontificate on this subject in the way you have been over the past couple of years? If my opinion of your training and qualifications is incorrect perhaps you would care to defend them?

In relation to what I HAVE said about you I am quite happy to defend in court my position, that the only sound advice as to how to proceed in these circumstances is to seek qualified legal advice. And that to do otherwise is dangerous. As for qualifications....

Well I too have qualifications in electronic engineering. They DON'T qualify me to wire houses though! The two fields might be closely related but if I want to work done within the wiring regulations I seek the advice of someone who is suitably qualified.

I'd be interested to know what body issued your HNC in computing and when it did so. I can only assume though that it did not include unit number DH8K 35, Law and the Communication Industries (or equivalent). That or something similar being core to any HN (or similar) course which seeks to qualify people to work in a creative field.

IF it emerges you HAVE this unit (or an equivalent) then your actions and writing simply become all the more extraordinary.

 

[Brian McIntosh]

I must say that I'm absolutely gobsmacked that someone would admit to copyright theft and have a blatant disregard for the IP rights of the individual that created the icon. Surely, with your education and subsequent "masters degree from the university of life", you would realise that this is wrong and illegal. I really don't understand the logic here. Are you condoning what you did? Just because no-one has chased you for two years, does that make it alright?

 

[Former Member 1]

Just for reference....

From...Editorial Photographers UK | Really Stupid Criminals: The Wacky World Of Web Designers

The actions by Getty and Corbis may appear heavy-handed to some, but individual photographers and small agencies know how hard it is to prevent copyright theft, and even harder to collect from the culprits. One individual at SitePoint even brags about how he saw off a photographer in the past, hiring lawyers to threaten a suit for slander against the hapless smudger.

But now the crooks have come up against someone bigger and nastier than they are.

Well, tough. :001_tt2::001_tt2::001_tt2::001_tt2:

Won't be the first time "The Guardian" has trotted out this stuff either....

Inside IT: A picture paints a thousand invoices | Technology | The Guardian

Freelancers accuse image giants of bullying :: Freelance UK

From THAT......

One of the invoice recipients is Bryan Weir, a freelance web designer, who claims he received a £2,400 demand from Corbis for using a small shopping cart icon they own.

In an online discussion this week, Mr Weir accused the company’s approach to copyright infringement as being “based on intimidation and threats.”.....

His posting on the row adds that, as far as public records show, there has not been a single case of Cobra or Getty pursuing an invoice recipient in court since the demands started two years ago

Under UK copyright law, where a “defendant did not know, and had no reason to believe” they were breaching copyright “the plaintiff is not entitled to damages against him”.

My note here.... That's NOT what section 97 says at all! The author of article adds...

However affected freelancers would be unwise to substitute a reading of clause 97 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, or any other of its clauses, with professional, tailored legal advice.

QUITE SO!!:thumbup:

Owners of websites should also note that they will be responsible, not the third-party who designed it, for any claim of unauthorised use of images and other copyrighted material, including logos.

Weir is later quoted as saying....

“Unfortunately it is not uncommon for offshore designers, and it must be said, UK web designers, to use unauthorised images,” Weir warned from his site, Toucher Web Design.[/I]

No; Indeed, it would appear that BREAKING the law isn't at all uncommon in the circles within which SOME people operate....:lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

[beedee]

YOU, not me YOU are the one who decided these comments were directed at you personally. You have already been told the comments were general in nature.

Thank you but I prefer to deal with people who are prepared to stand with their convictions rather than backing down when the going gets tough.

I am the tom that Matt has referred and the question is, did you pay for the icon in question before you used it? Easy yes or no question

I have already answered this clearly and unambiguously. You seem not to be paying attention.

I am sure many reasonable people will be drawing their own conclusions as to your integrity and professionalism as a result of what YOU have just admitted.

My professionalism and integrity is based on my mission in my business life, which is to ensure that I meet and exceed all of my clients' requirements. It is also to show respect for my fellow professionals and business contacts. The many testimonials I have collected over the years provide all the evidence I need to demonstrate my professionalism.

I do not need to use innuendo or implication to back up my arguments. I tend to stick to the facts and to discuss things in a reasonable way. I have resisted your constant implication that I have no qualifications or experience and that I am not qualified to do what I do until now but I will admit it. You have forced me to go public.

The fact that you lecture at Stow College does not necessarily make you an expert at anything by the way and it certainly does not place you in a position to dispense legal advice other than to see a lawyer, which all that you have done.

I'd be interested to know what body issued your HNC in computing and when it did so.

Since you seem to be implying that I am lying and against my better judgement I will confirm that I was an awarded an HNC (merit) in Computing in June 1992 by the Scottish Vocational Education Council. It included modules in Applied Mathematics, Software Engineering, Communication Skills (you should consider for this one),Multi-User system Support, Systems Development and Software Development.

I also have three National Certificate Modules in computer programming gained in 1986 and 1987 when you were just a wee laddie. In addition I have electrical and Electronic Engineering Qualifications awarded by the C ang G of London Institute in the 1960s and 1970's, the first perhaps before you were even born. I have completed additional vocational training and certification in electronics, electrical engineering, safety engineering, robotics and automation.

In my industry career I had several management and supervisory roles in which I gained a list of other modules related to communications, people skills (good one to have),management, grievance handling, managing business projects, presentation skills, performance appraisal, yad, yada yada.

So do me a favour. Please do not continue to insinuate that I am unqualified to do what I do. I have been working in industry and business since 1964 and believe me, I have learned a wee bit about how to handle people and to be courteous and respectful but then I am of a different generation from you guys.

He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches.
G.B. Shaw, "Maxims for Revolutionists" in Man and Superman_ (1903)

 

[beedee]

Are you condoning what you did? Just because no-one has chased you for two years, does that make it alright?

No and I have already explained the circumstances on more than one occasion. I don't intend to do this again.

 

[Former Member 1]

No and I have already explained the circumstances on more than one occasion. I don't intend to do this again.

I see no explanation. All I see is that you, in the course of your business failed to pay for something you used.

Presumably, as you ARE professionally competent, you of course have it's source and the details of the licence under which you used it on record? Would you confirm whether that IS or ISN'T the case?

 

[beedee]

I have already done so.

 

[TomB]

I'm sorry beedee, but you admit that you used a picture without paying for it. That is just plain and simple, stupidity.:thumbdown:

What did you expect to happen?

I'm mean if you were caught downloading an album off the internet without paying for it, do you think sony would send threatening letters and then leave it? Do you think that just because you hadn't heard from them for 2 years that you would have gotten away with it. I think not!

They would be dragging you through court making an example of you so that other people would know that they won't take it lying down.

I certainly know that if someone used my IP without rights, i would be pursing the matter legally.

To claim ignorance is simply stupidity

 

[beedee]

They would be dragging you through court making an example of you so that other people would know that they won't take it lying down.

They haven't.

 

[TomB]

They haven't.

No Beedee, if you read my post you will see that that comment related to my point about Sony.

To be honest, i see no further point in commenting on this thread, you have admitted that you used the image without paying for it, yet you are complaining about the consequences.

Enough said

 

[Former Member 1]

Thank you but I prefer to deal with people who are prepared to stand with their convictions rather than backing down when the going gets tough.

I'm perfectly prepared to stand by what I wrote. In court if necessary. I'm not backing down from anyone; and certainly not the likes of you!

I have already answered this clearly and unambiguously. You seem not to be paying attention.

Yes; but you had to be asked SEVERAL times before admitting to breaking the law.

My professionalism and integrity is based on my mission in my business life, which is to ensure that I meet and exceed all of my clients' requirements. It is also to show respect for my fellow professionals and business contacts. The many testimonials I have collected over the years provide all the evidence I need to demonstrate my professionalism.

Do your clients not expect you to work within the law? Does your respect for others not extend to graphics artists?

I do not need to use innuendo or implication to back up my arguments. I tend to stick to the facts and to discuss things in a reasonable way. I have resisted your constant implication that I have no qualifications or experience and that I am not qualified to do what I do until now but I will admit it. You have forced me to go public.

No innuendo or implications were involved. It's simply taken you quite a while to admit the facts which you're so fond of 'sticking to'

The fact that you lecture at Stow College does not necessarily make you an expert at anything by the way and it certainly does not place you in a position to dispense legal advice other than to see a lawyer, which all that you have done.

The fact that I was invited to lecture at Stow, and was invited last year by the SQA to sit on a qualifications design team tends to suggest that those credible academic bodies see something of merit in what I know.

You're quite right. Those things DON'T place me in a position to dispense legal advice WHICH IS WHY I HAVEN'T!

Since you seem to be implying that I am lying and against my better judgement I will confirm that I was an awarded an HNC (merit) in Computing in June 1992 by the Scottish Vocational Education Council. It included modules in Applied Mathematics, Software Engineering, Communication Skills (you should consider for this one),Multi-User system Support, Systems Development and Software Development.

I also have three National Certificate Modules in computer programming gained in 1986 and 1987 when you were just a wee laddie. In addition I have electrical and Electronic Engineering Qualifications awarded by the C ang G of London Institute in the 1960s and 1970's, the first perhaps before you were even born. I have completed additional vocational training and certification in electronics, electrical engineering, safety engineering, robotics and automation.

Only national certificate modules? NOT a complete group award then? N.C. courses being the 'bridging courses' we use to bring non-academic school leavers up to the standard where they can be admitted to HN. Of course we only actually admit them IF they COMPLETE the course...:laugh::laugh::laugh:

I wasn't implying you were lying. I was trying to get to the bottom of what makes you think you're in a position to pontificate on points of IP law as you HAVE been doing over the past almost-two years....

As for your patronising "wee laddie" comment; for your information old man in 1986/87 I was a fully qualified producer with my training well completed and two major international awards (as well as a crop of UK ones) to my name. I too have C&G (232 with IBA Amendments; just PART of the IBA qualification) as well as NC (completed the whole course in 8 weeks!),HNC and HND level qualifications in a wide range of subjects from electronic engineering through marketing and of course video production. That's IN addition to SVQ level 3 in business management two American Associates degrees and various trade certificates in stuff like Health and Safety, PAT testing, Welding even!

In my industry career I had several management and supervisory roles in which I gained a list of other modules related to communications, people skills (good one to have),management, grievance handling, managing business projects, presentation skills, performance appraisal, yad, yada yada.

Funny that.... I've been running businesses since I was a wee laddie; and not just been a 'senior manager'. But actually been the Boss!

 

[Former Member 1]

So do me a favour. Please do not continue to insinuate that I am unqualified to do what I do.

I have resisted your constant implication that I have no qualifications or experience and that I am not qualified to do what I do until now but I will admit it.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: WHAT was that you were saying about communication skills? Oh well :thumbup:I suppose now that you've admitted it....:001_rolleyes::001_rolleyes:

I have been working in industry and business since 1964 and believe me, I have learned a wee bit about how to handle people and to be courteous and respectful but then I am of a different generation from you guys.

Funny that. My dad's just a few years older than you but he taught me respect was something you had too EARN. He also taught me how to handle people who claim to be what they're not AND that those who had no respect for the law were worthy only of utter contempt.

I respect those who are worthy of respect.

He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches.
G.B. Shaw, "Maxims for Revolutionists" in Man and Superman_ (1903) [/QUOTE]

AYE Bedee; but here's the thing. I HAVE DONE AND I DO actually DO! And I've got the medals to prove it.