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Is Chip and Pin flawed?

  • Thread starter Scottish Business Owner
  • Start date
Scottish Business Owner

Scottish Business Owner

New Member
Came across the article below today which makes for some interesting reading. I'm one of those people who thought the introduction of Chip and Pin was a great idea and I have to say that I haven't (to my knowledge) been the victim of any suspicious transactions since i've started using it.

Chip and pin should be overhauled to protect millions of bank customers - Telegraph

I remember posting recently about issues with Verified with Visa and again the article above doesn't paint the banks in any great way. Surely if there are concerns about the technology it should be investigated?
 
I've never been a fan of Chip and Pin. Had the pin been brought in as an additional measure to the signature I'd have gone with it. But as things stand there seem too many more opportunities for fraud and less protection for the client...

At the end of the day a faked signature can usually be proved not to belong to the rightful holder. But a cloned card and PIN can be far more troublesome. Some time ago we had cards cloned in a Livingston service area...

The clones were used in Canada and Australia; and the problems we had proving we'd never left the country during the period in question were unbeleivable. The bank's attitude was they had the PIN; so the fault must lie with us! As I'm particularly careful with my PIN I'm convinced some electronic method of acquiring it when my card was cloned must have been used...

Afraid I don't see the system as very secure at all really...
 
G

Gouldie0

New Member
I had reservations when chip and pin was introduced and to be perfectly honest i still don't feel comfortable punching my pin into a packed supermarket. These terminals seem to be in the eye line of everybody else, they could've at least made them so the key pad was covered.

I always wonder why the banks act after the criminals of this world have progressed there methods of extorting money from the bank accounts of the innocent members of the public?

More needs to be done to stay ahead of these criminals.

Kind Regards

Neil
 
stugster

stugster

Active Member
"Banks say that using the chip and pin system proves that the customer must have used the card. This shows that that is not necessarily true." <-- this bit is rubbish.

The chip in your card is a very small microprocessor. The machine that you stick your card into gets either a "yes" or a "no" from the card when it probes the microprocessor with the PIN. The card itself has non-volatile memory that counts the number of failed attempts...

The whole point of Chip And Pin from the Banks perspective was to shift liability for fraud from the Bank to the customer - nice huh?

Cambridge research paper here: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.64.8093&rep=rep1&type=pdf very interesting.


To summarise? You can sell anything with the right marketing.
 
Mike Lewis

Mike Lewis

New Member
The article states:

... one in seven people could have already been a victim of a "fatal flaw" in the system.

One in seven people? That sounds highly implausible. Even if we took it mean one in seven card-holders, that's still many millions of people who, according to article, could have been defrauded.

Is that really likely? All those people have had money taken off their cards, and this is the first anyone has heard of it?

Frankly, the article's credibility went to zero when I read that opening sentence.

Mike
 
stugster

stugster

Active Member
Hi Mike,

Banks will want to keep the fraud close to their chests - releasing the information is bad business. I've had my card cloned recently, as too have a number of people I know. I agree that the 1 in 7 ratio is probably an inaccurate assumption, but it wouldn't be far off the mark.
 
Is that really likely? All those people have had money taken off their cards, and this is the first anyone has heard of it?

In my household we've had three different cards cloned and money taken from them via ATMs in Canada and Australia..

On each occasion we had to prove to the bank that we'd been in the UK and that the original cards were with us... Fortunately all the cards were in active use and genuine transactions were made in the UK the timing of which rendered it a physical impossibility to travel between the locations where the fraud was carried out...

In conversation with the mechanic who looks after our cars it emerged he, one of his employees and his wife had each had similar experiences...

I've had other problems with the system too...
 
Mike Lewis

Mike Lewis

New Member
Matt and Stuart,

That's interesting anecdotal evidence (and I'm sorry to hear about your bad experiences),but it doesn't negate my point. I'd want to know where the article's author got the one-in-seven figure from. The article mentioned a survey, but they don't mention who was surveyed or what questions were asked. For all we know, the survey might have been of people who visited a website to help victims of chip-and-pin fraud.

I agree that the banks have a vested interest in keeping things quiet. But the victims themselves don't have any such vested interest, and nor do the media. If it was true that millions of people had been affected, it stretches the bounds of credulity to suggest that nobody would have known about it until now.

Mike
 
Done a little scratching around on this one...

Chip and Pin system flawed - new card fraud risk - Which? News

"Which?" are, apparently, the source of the figures.

You would be astonished Mike if you were to learn the things which are common knowledge in journalistic circles yet, for one reason or another, are largely unreported to the public. The Media in this country is far from free or open; and it takes a certain 'critical mass' of journalistic will for a story to be broken... And even then; careers have been effectively ended when the greater will has been to discredit an honest expose and the people behind it.

In this case a lack of reportable research is what keeps things under wraps. That and pressure brought to bear on journalists. This can range from company agenda burying a story to individuals facing (from banks for instance) ratejacking on a spectacular scale or otherwise paying 'funny buggers' with a person's finances...

Contrary to popular belief most journalists aren't earning six figure salaries and don't have much in the way of job security. Many freelance, and have to worry about where their next story is coming from; they can't afford to be 'blackballed'. They also generally have houses, partners, kids and cars to keep fed financially; thus many a hack exists in a place where there is a very tight grasp on on the old short and curlies...

It's the same right the way though the media. You should read some of Greg Philo's work on the subject. And scratch around a little to try and find out why we've not seen much of David Bellamy on TV lately... The man has been 'frozen out' because he won't tow the party line..

"Which?" (in journalistic terms) are in an enviable position as they have no advertisers to cow tow to. Ask yourself how much advertising comes from credit card companies and you'll get some way to realising why this isn't widely reported...

PIN protection of cards has NEVER been effective! And the banks' attitude has always been just plain dishonest...

I recall one incident around 25 years ago. I had withdrawn money to buy lunch from an Midland ATM just off Euston Road at around noon one day. At 12:20 another withdrawal was made ...From the Clydesdale ATM in St Enoch's Square!

Took three months and quite a few phone calls from ITN researchers before the Clydesdale finally admitted that of course it was physically impossible for me to travel from central London to central Glasgow in 20 minutes!

And that WAS the position being taken by the Clydesdale bank ! Their system was infallible! I was being stonewalled and accused not only of fraud (the bank manager at the Clydesdale branch called me a liar to my face!) but making this absurd impossible journey!

It's something I've always been VERY careful about but still I've had problems with many times; to the point where I try to avoid ATMs and have a second bank account with only a very small amount of money kept in it... It's the card for that account that I carry in case I need cash; and even if I needed access to a larger amount I'd transfer money from my main account into it. That way a fraudster getting access to that acount has nothing much to grab...

The one-in-seven figures don't surprise me in the least; but then I'm just going with personal and anecdotal evidence....
 
Mike Lewis

Mike Lewis

New Member
Matt,

You've raised some good points. However, I have to say I don't recognise anything in your description of journalism that rings true. I'm speaking from some experience. Before I entered the software industry, I trained in journalism and worked as a journalist in print and broadcasting, including eight years as a full-time news and feature writer here in Scotland.

The exception is your statement that "most journalists aren't earning six figure salaries". Well, of course they're not. (Although it wasn't until I became a software developer that I realised how lousy the pay is in journalism.) You're right too about the lack of job security. I've suffered from that myself, although it didn't bother me much at the time.

Apart from that, I disagree with all your assertions. I say that with some hesitation, however, as I realise that you work in PR, and so probably have some inside knowledge of journalism as well - and more up-to-date than mine.

I'm not saying that chip-and-pin fraud doesn't exist. I'm simply urging that we apply a test of reasonableness. The populatation of the UK is 61.4 million. We are asked to believe that one in seven - 8.7 million people - have been victims of chip-and-pin fraud - and in the five yeas since chip-and-pin has been in existence. And that the media is hushing it up because they don't want to lose advertising from the banks.

Sorry, but I'd need some solid evidence before I believe a word of that.
 
As it happens my background is in news gathering and documentary. I'm a current BAJ member... My background in news goes back to 1980 when I joined the Thames News team as a trainee..

TFGtv is merely a small family business that's run alongside and to some degree is subsidised by some of my other work...

All I'll say in public is quite why this pattern isn't familiar to you I couldn't say. Perhaps you worked in an area that didn't require you to be as confrontational as I've found necessary to survive?

But I'm far from the only commentator to note this sort of thing .

Nor am I anywhere near the most vociferous or authoritative on the matter. Anyone interested in the subject might like to start with the work of Greg Philo and the Glasgow Media Group. That will lead them along various routes. and the reality is that much that goes on really isn't reported...

Personally; well again on a public forum I can only cite the most trival examples. I personally have found myself on 'the wrong end' of organisations like local councils (and banks!) because of the material I've pushed out into the public area...

West Lothian Council for instance have never 'forgiven' me for exposing their tacit endorsement of anti-social behaviour in the district; that was over a decade ago....

Tactics have included (and I list ony a few here) 'loosing' our council tax payments... (We face a constant uphill battle EVERY goddam year with them over this) Refusing to list TFGtv in the local business directory; and when they were eventually embarassed into putting it it listing the wrong details! Loosing a lock-up application for 8 years... Freezing me out when I tried to rent local council-owned industrial premises locally... I've had everyone at my front door from Trading Standards accusing me of dealing in second hand cars through to environmental health with stories about commercial darkrooms... And some 'wumman' from the cleansing department with a stupid story about a bin lid on a string!!

As for covering events in my own back yard? I have an arrangement with a colleague in a different district who finds himself in a similar position there. There are three cameramen and an editor living in or near this village. Only one of us doesn't receive press invites or releases from the local council... :001_rolleyes:

It's only my making it VERY clear to them that I'm quite willing and able to place them back in the limelight again that has caused them, in recent months, to back off a little...

Another example: We're currently investigating certain matters in connection with the care commission... Their 'people' have tried it on with me; at one point one of the geniuses on the PR side venturing into 'almost abusive' territory... It hasn't killed the story; quite the reverse!

Result? Well as it happens my Mrs works in a play setting. She has faced harassment via various agencies (and I won't go too deeply into this) with the net result that she is currently signed off work due to the stress.

It's been made quite clear to me that all will be well if I simply drop the story...

As for the numbers... The population of the UK might well be 61.4 million... As you know though a fair chunk of that number won't be using chip and pin cards... Certainly though seeing the demographics of the sample those stats are based on would be of immense interest.

One other point... On the three occasions we've had cards cloned and money stolen a refund has only been given upon signing a document acknowledging that they were refunding as 'an act of goodwill' (i.e. admitting no fault and still effectively blaming us!) and requiring us to keep silent about the matter!
 
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