For the benefit of non SEO/SEM companies.

[stuarty]

Would it be possible for all the arguing and peeing highest competitions about SEO to stop please?

The reason I'm posting this is because I received a couple of emails from folk on the forum who said they felt they didn't want to post questions for fear of it developing into a debate and never getting an answer.

I was away last week and came back to see threads going way off topic. Surely this can't be of any benefit to those companies that don't understand to see us all arguing about what's right and wrong about SEO?

I can be as guilty as the next person but I try my best to keep things in context for the benefit of those who are looking for advice.

Does anyone think it would be a good idea for the Pro SEOs to have their own area? We can debate amongst ourselves on the finer more technical aspects and fight amongst ourselves.

One suggestion that may help novices - for the main IM&EB forum we could have say a "winner" button or agree to end the thread once the question has been answered. This way novices can get what they need and avoid any confusion on stuff they don't understand. This may attract more people to the forum.

Thoughts please.

 

[Boxby]

Hi Stuart

Not wanting to start an arguement, honest..... I appreciate the angle that you are coming from, but it seems to be as a website owner that there is no ultimate "correct" answer for SEO. As I see it, google's algorithm is unpublished, and changes in major and minor ways continually. So all SEO's can do (and I don't mean this in a disrespectful way) is to take best researched guesses.

Some elements such as linkbuilding are kind of consentual. But other stuff such as page rank there is more to it than simply one piece of advice such as get loads of links from high PR websites (and I know that because I put a website live, with only one link into it from a PR1 site, and the new site got a PR3 and its PR never ever went down, despite a million crappy links coutesy of Smart-traffic).

I appreciate that it doesn't help folk such as me when SEOs get into very heated debates and perhaps get too technical for my understanding. But that in itself does give me a very big reminder that SEO is not simply a list of 10 things that you need to do to get to the top of google.

I have a batch of SEO forum posters over a few forums who I pay a lot of attention to, and the reason I read these guys posts with more consideration than other random SEO posters, is because i've followed threads where they've had to go beyond the basic, the ones that have frequently ended up in the heated debates.

Anyway, that's my thoughts.....

 

[stuarty]

Thanks Sandra,

I understand that some, like yourself who understand things better want more detailed information. You could join in/observe the "pros lounge".

You're correct that there's no 10 commandments but I'm thinking lowest common denominator to help those at base level. If sticking to basic facts then a member can concentrate on this point and take it to the next level. If the forum can have lots of basic tips, questions answers that don't go off topic then it makes it easier for those searching for the bare minimum advice. In addition it stops lengthy threads where a novice can get lost and stops repitition of the same topics.

At the risk of this going off topic re your point on Google's algorithim. Google does publish stuff about it's algorithim - they have done since 2004 in numerous patent applications. It's something to do with US anti trust laws IIRC. It's their search intelligence that no one knows about - ie how they put it all together. Google’s patents reveal significant information about all the possible ways they can use your web page updates to determine the ranking of your site in the SERPs. All the information's there and that's how we've figured out ways to rank.

This is an old one but you can see how Google scores your web pages from this patent - United States Patent Application 20050071741 on March 31, 2005

Anyway....back to the thread

 

[NorthSouthMedia]

Hi, I'm fresh out of the wrapper here, I have been absent from online forum participation for about 7 months because of SEO debates that turn into pissing contests.

I do like debate, I feel that debate opens up new learning curves for everyone involved. But when guidance and advice is poor and one side refuses to consider the others argument that's when it has the possibility of turning nasty.

SEO is a highly controversial area due to the secretive nature of the top performing search engines. SEO's, themselves, have many differing thoughts and practices about the industry - many will agree about certain factors while many will also cross swords. I, for one, will look forward to some healthy debate but don't expect me to start any mud slinging, I'm too old for all that nonsense.

 

[PeterHoggan]

I am all for transparency and openness, what you are sugesting might be seen as some as stepping behind frosted glass once more.

 

[peteark]

Here we go with the 'going off topic' sketch. If there was a problem with a conversation wandering would the forum owner not step in?

Stuart it seems like you are setting the rules up for further discussions on SEO related matters, good luck.

Yes you can gain an understanding of Googles thinking from reviewing patents, the understandable reviews are better, however only gives guidance, as Sandra states most of it is educated guesswork based around guidelines and experimentation. Then you add to the pot Google tweaked their algo over 250 times in 2008 alone.

Would it not have been better to approach the SEO community for their thoughts on posting guidelines than making demands. Or is this another inner circle thing I am missing out on.

 

[Scottish Business Owner]

I've removed the post above as it referred to a PM which by it's very nature should be private.

I'd also like to say i'm becoming concerned about the nature of some of these SEO posts and the constant need for people to bitch at each other etc. I like the forums to have open and honest discussions and that sometimes means I let some things go even if they are a little controversial. We're all big boys and girls afterall

Lets keep things civilised please

 

[stuarty]

For the record

There are no demands of any sort in my OP - only questions, suggestions and requests for opinions.

I made it perfectly clear in my OP that this was in response to two emails I received from members. I was asked to make the suggestion. Hopefully they will come on and express their concerns

There is no inner circle that I am aware of and I'm certainly not a member if that's what you're implying. I was on holiday last week and missed all the mud slinging. I'm not setting up any rules

PMs are exactly that - private. I don't divulge the contents of any PMs and I'd expect the same in return.

 

[peteark]

I have not seen many technical disagreements between SEO's, in fact the complete opposite. I have seen many disagreements between SEO's and others. This was highlighted in a recent thread when I mentioned something about web design, resulting in a huge stir. Surely people should advocate fairness, if an SEO posts something unrelated to their sector, should it be jumped on by rank and file, who themselves are guilty of constantly debating SEO matters?

I personally offer sound advice to people on this forum, should this not be respected, especially when you consider my site is the strongest in the sector, the only true yard stick

The problem with all these type of forums is everyone has some kind of opinion on SEO or SEO related matters, yet when I check Google I seldom see these posters sites in the first 20 pages. Maybe if people were more respectful of the work and advice provided by genuine SEO's there would be less of an issue. The problems highlighted here are common place on most business forums. I have lost count of the amount of people I have offered private consultation to, who then go on to be entrenched in a forum and preach to everyone as the subject matter expert.

The only reason I mentioned the PM was to show I have no hidden agenda here, why else would I ask Stuart to stay on. In my own opinion this was an act of kindness that somehow seems to have been twisted.

 

[peteark]

My reference to the OP

I was away last week and came back to see threads going way off topic

This was the comment I questioned in the OP as it seems a little odd

 

[NorthSouthMedia]

I personally offer sound advice to people on this forum, should this not be respected, especially when you consider my site is the strongest in the sector, the only true yard stick ...

Can I ask Pete, which sector your referring to?

I'm new to this forum and would like to understand and get to know better the contributors.

 

[RedEvo]

I find when people become abusive or combative or you disagree with their take on things entirely it's an idea to just drop out of the thread. Life's too short.

Like others I've learned the hard way :001_rolleyes:

Forums are great IMHO but there's something about forums or emails for the matter that seems to encourage people to be rude in a way they simply never would in another social setting. When was the last time you witnessed complete strangers at each others throats at a networking event?

It's possible to take a serious dislike to a person in a forum or after an email exchange when in another setting you would enjoy their company.

If someone is determined to piss the highest, let them, it's very satisfying watching as their own piss rains down on their own heads.

d

 

[Gordon N]

If someone is determined to piss the highest, let them, it's very satisfying watching as their own piss rains down on their own heads.

Now that is a fantastic way of putting it, brilliant! :thumbup:

 

[Adventurelife]

I have not seen many technical disagreements between SEO's, in fact the complete opposite. I have seen many disagreements between SEO's and others. This was highlighted in a recent thread when I mentioned something about web design, resulting in a huge stir. Surely people should advocate fairness, if an SEO posts something unrelated to their sector, should it be jumped on by rank and file, who themselves are guilty of constantly debating SEO matters?

I personally offer sound advice to people on this forum, should this not be respected, especially when you consider my site is the strongest in the sector, the only true yard stick

The problem with all these type of forums is everyone has some kind of opinion on SEO or SEO related matters, yet when I check Google I seldom see these posters sites in the first 20 pages. Maybe if people were more respectful of the work and advice provided by genuine SEO's there would be less of an issue. The problems highlighted here are common place on most business forums. I have lost count of the amount of people I have offered private consultation to, who then go on to be entrenched in a forum and preach to everyone as the subject matter expert.

The only reason I mentioned the PM was to show I have no hidden agenda here, why else would I ask Stuart to stay on. In my own opinion this was an act of kindness that somehow seems to have been twisted.

Pete

I am one of the non SEO's who has a habit of commenting on SEO posts. I am what you would probably call an interested amateur and have never been an expert at anything in may life so would never preach. That said I have been playing with websites and electronic commerce since around 2000 and by 2003 I had daily revenues of £75k via electronic commerce for the plc that employed me as head of e-business so I have a broad business view of what can be done.

What SEO experts have to keep in mind is that SEO is just one part of many, many business issues all be it and important one.

Your above post seems a bit desperate to be honest, I have no idea who you are and you may be outstanding at what you do or you may not, however, when you post saying should my advice not be respected it comes across as a bit desperate.

I have always found respect is something that is earned by delivering, therefore if you are delivering in your sector you must have the respect that you are looking for. As for getting respect from online forum members, that is a by product of providing good help and advice is it not?

Also how can people be "more respectful of the work and advice provided by genuine SEO's" when it is obvious to a blind man that many on forums do not have a clue which way is up when it comes to SEO.

Put yourself in potential clients or business person shoes who does not know anything about SEO, they are on forums to listen and learn. They can if they are astute learn a lot from you guys but the one up man ship I am sure makes many laugh as it does me.

Peter

 

[Boxby]

Following on from Peter post, It is interesting how different SEO/SEm companies take different approaches. Some advocate that SEO is rankings, and that being top and getting people in is everything, some advocate that chasing new traffic is a waste of time if you can't convert it properly once it's on your website. Others advocate a mix. Some say it's all about link building, others will focus on on-site stuff.

On other forums I see a lot of posts where SEO experts post advice, and the client hasn't posted a link or included in their profile their home page. Therefore, as far as I am concerned, any advice posted by any seo before the questions "can you post your url" simply needs discounting, because it's just spouting rather than careful thought through advice.

The thing is that every client's sitution is different, their goals are different (online & business strategy),their starting position is different, and their websites are different. Therefore what one SEO suggests in one particular situation may be bang on for the client, even if that isn't the accepted industry "norm".

But it is important to remember that all though SEO is important (and infact essential) to may businesses, in others it maybe (quite rightly) doesn't even figure on the radar. And I think that many SEOs do make the assumption that the fix for all businesses is better SEO, and for many, it's not.

 

[PeterHoggan]

Very insightful post Boxby. I suppose in the purest sense SEO is about rankings but it has to be said that customers never buy from a search engine. The keywords that are targeted and the rankings that are achieved create a funnelling process designed to get people to your site. This is the mechanics of SEO if you like. However, rankings might not be the main concern if the site is already receiving high levels of traffic but is failing to convert or meet specific goals because of accessibility or usability issues or if the main landing pages represent a major disconnect.

peteark very graciously offered you a SEO report/audit the other day and asked you for a keyphrase. I personally disagree with this approach rather I would want to know more about your goals and strategies in order to gain understanding of what is required. A single keyword tdoes not provide me with level of information I would require to conduct thorough research and produce a meaningful report. (just my personal point of view peteark)

Good SEO is based experiential learning, Google et al are very secretive about their algorithms so it comes down to reverse engineering to find out what works and what doesn’t, yes this can result in tactics that are outside the industry norm. It can also create an impression of a dysfunctional industry where one SEO will openly contradict another’s other’s point of view without first trying to understand it and perhaps learn from it.

 

[Employment Law Services]

When someone posts a question about SEO which is aimed at potential SEO customers ( a great idea btw) and NOT the SEO experts themselves I'd like to see more posts from general forum members and NO posts from SEO companies attempting to rubbish the views of the consumers.

There's a couple of live threads right now that, as far as I could gather, asked questions about SEO charging and guarantees that were intended for potential customers but when views have been expressed by potential customers some SEO companies have become defensive and/or argued with the views being expressed.

If you want a customer perspective great but don't ask for it then rubbish it because they don't share your )SEO company) opinion.

 

[peteark]

Its a fair point and if other sectors upheld the same standards there would be less arguments.

I am drawn to my one post about designers it was certainly jumped aboard, by moderators and senior members alike.

I had a scout around this afternoon, I would advise the designers here to spend more time on their own websites, there are some serious errors out there guys, this is not a dig, but 100% fact.

Your sites more than anyone's should be inspiring, well built and display no errors.

 

[Gordon N]

I had a scout around this afternoon, I would advise the designers here to spend more time on their own websites, there are some serious errors out there guys, this is not a dig, but 100% fact.

Your sites more than anyone's should be inspiring, well built and display no errors.

Whilst agree that designers sites should be inspiring and error free, I don't really see the relevance in this thread. Surely a well placed PM to alert the person(s) to let them know would be more helpful and more in keeping with a community spirit? I know I would be grateful of such a message so I could correct things.

Just a thought.