Charging for large quotes that take a big part of my day

[Gutsy]

Hi guys,
I wanted to get a feel for what you think about this. Yesterday, I got a quote in for proofreading a website.
As I normally ask a per word price for proofreading, I asked the guy to send me a total word count, but he said he was unable to do this (I'm not sure why). So anyway, he then sent me a link to a proofreading version of his website, but there was an issue and I was only able to log in after about an hour of bouncing emails around. After this, I physically had to go and copy and paste all of the web content (about 40 pages) into a word document in order to do a word count. (Always wise after the fact, I realised I should have insisted that he do this himself).

Anyway, the total preparation of my quote took the better part of 2.5 hours - only for the client to turn around and say my rates were too expensive. This is not the first time this has happened to me - some transcription / translation quotes can be pretty complicated.

So I wanted to bounce off you as business owners how you would react if you saw something that said something like "Complicated quotes will be charged at R100 (about 10 pounds) if they are not accepted. Should you accept my quote, the quote will be free."

Thanks guys, and btw happy new year!

 

[Canary Dwarf]

I wouldn't have thought £10 is enough for a large part of your day! They now have a word count to take to another provider!

I would suggest you stick by your original method. Quote per word and let the client establish about how many words there are.

To get round the problem of them expecting you to do it for nothing, you could say that word-counting (on a large scale) is a chargeable service at £XX.

Personally, I would probably have estimated how many words were there, then based the quote on the estimate, with a proviso that the actual word count assessment would be part of the job and any fluctuations from it up or down would be reflected in the cost.

 

[Mike Lewis]

Gaynor,

This is a very good question. It's an issue I've often faced as a freelance software developer. Getting the information you need to give the quote can take an appreciable time, and if the client turns the quote down, it's a total waste.

That said, I'm personally inclined not to attempt to charge for the process of quoting. I see it as part of the cost of doing business, and something you just have to accept. The aim should be to convert as many quotes as possible into firm sales, so that it won't hurt so much when you have to write a few off.

You asked how I (as a prospective client) would react if I was I asked to pay for a complicated quote. I would react unfavoroubly. I'd simply look elsewhere. That said, if I was a prospective client, I would expect to go to any reasonable lengths to give you the information (word counts, whatever) you need to do a quote.

That's just my personal view. It would be interesting to hear what others think.

 

[McVicar Marketing]

Hi there,

Yes – very good question.

(Phew – this is a long post – but it is an area I’m constantly aware of and readapting my processes to contend with)

As a marketing consultant, I did find it tough (at first) to work out how I can provide a quote without actually giving my product away for free.

Quotes and proposals are obviously essential in order for my customers to make informed decisions, but if I give a full all-singing-all-dancing solution to their marketing needs as part of a proposal, I’m fundamentally providing my creatives and know-how for no guarantee of the project going ahead.

I now concentrate on building a relationship with my client to demonstrate my skills and ability to deliver, rather than relying purely on quotes/proposals as my sales tools. My quote/proposal is part of that demonstration, with other parts including the initial meeting with my client, discussions over the phone, providing my portfolio, testimonials etc.

So – my process is to:

- Meet/phone conference with my client in order to ascertain their needs/problems, to gather key information and to also ascertain how committed they are to the project becoming a reality (no charge)

- From the meeting, I produce a proposal, which is fundamentally my close identification of what they need, and a responding overview of how they can solve their needs BUT which doesn’t include specific creatives or know-how (no charge)

This stage obviously needs to be completed properly, and does take up my time, but (as Mike pointed out) quoting is simply part of business

- If they accept that proposal, project goes ahead (fees apply)

- If they need more information (with the all-singing-all-dancing parts),I offer to produce a full marketing strategy, which is chargeable, but includes a depth of information which will allow them to either undertake the work themselves, to give the project to me to service, or to put the project out to tender (fees apply)

If, at any of those stages, my client cannot provide the information I need, I first have to consider whether they are committed to the project going ahead. If so, I put the onus back onto them providing the information (and literally give them a list of what I need to know) or I offer them my services in gathering that information.

Canary Dwarf is also right re estimations. If a client can’t provide me with an idea of their budget, I stagger the fees attached to specific pieces of work within my proposal. This allows the client to manage their budget, and allows me to avoid having to reduce my fee if I get into a debate about costs. In that instance, I point my client in the direction of which parts are ‘crucial’, and which could be seen as additional. For example, I gave one client a proposal with a £20,000 fee – he came back to say that they only had £3,000, but I still won the contract because they were able to see, from my proposal, what their £3,000 would actually buy them.

Another good example is where I had a consortium of clients who had a very vague idea about a product they wanted to launch. Based on very scant information, I gave them a proposal which included a full research stage, plus an overview of a marketing strategy for testing an early version of their product. After submitting one proposal, any further meetings or proposals from me were chargeable – which the clients were happy to pay because I had been clear in identifying and communicating what their ‘problems’ were. The product actually didn’t go ahead, but my time spent with the client, and providing a proposal, directly led to chargeable work because I had demonstrated to them that I knew what I was talking about, and had the skills to deliver.

Overall – I see initial discussions with clients as ‘identifying problems’, the second as ‘providing broad stroke solutions’ and the third as either project approval, or further ‘chargeable consultation’.

I don’t think there is one solution which fits all scenarios and all clients, and we will always spend time on quotes/proposals which we don’t win. However, I think it is also important to not forget that you are not completely at the mercy of your client. If you think that the quoting stage is going to be complex, or that your client is not committed to the project and/or working with you, then it’s also up to you to decide whether it is all worth your time (literally).

In your instance (and it’s easy to say with hindsight),it would have been best to either hold firm on the client providing you with the word count, or for you to have provided an estimate. Also, from what you’ve explained, I might have also thought that the various problems you had even getting the content should have raised flags about how complex the project might become.

Hope that’s of some use. Looking forward to hearing what everyone else thinks.

 

[profitxchange]

you made the mistake of letting yourself get drawn into this situation. However, you need to have a checkpoint in your process that your quote is based on the information being provided in the form you need to provide a quote. If YOU have to process the information to enable you to quote then you charge on a time and material basis, and this should be clearly stated. This is what most printers do so it should not be a surprise to anyone. Your T&C's should clearly state how you deal with quotes.

 

[Former Member 1]

You have quite a few issues with this one and much has to do with being over complient with customers demands; thus letting the scope of this 'mini-project' creep out of hand.

In a broader sense many folk might find the following useful reading...

http://www.nickjenkins.net/prose/projectPrimer.pdf

Quoting and estimating are difficult processes; ones that contribute to your cost of sales, and that needs to be tailored to and incorporated in to the typical final cost of the product. A quote for a packet of six apples is a less complex affair than a quote for a bespoke had-build motor car! And the former should be a more superficial process than the latter!

As Marc and Profitexchange have suggested it's not unreasonable for you to state that a request for a quote must contain a certain level of information. And for anything that requires further work or research to become a chargeable item. Marc quite rightly points out that you've just provided them, for free, with an item of information that is of value in seeking quotes from your competitors..

Inga's approach is, I'd say fairly typical of that of someone in the creative industries... Our own process is similar...

We too meet/phone conference with the client to produce what we call a 'treatment'. Sometimes we'll produce a few alternatives or sometimes we'll take an outline script from the client if they have one and develop an estimate and proposal from that...

IF they accept that proposal we take a 20% deposit and go on to develop the treatment or outline script into a production script, shooting script, shooting schedule, running orders etc.. We also do all the risk assessments etc... Basically at this stage you have a 'turnkey' set of blueprints to proceed with the production..

When completed that goes back to the client for approval; at that stage we take another 20%+ The estimated cost of any extras such as accommodation, any air travel, performers fees, third party fees etc... And the shoot moves to production...

What this achieves is a fairly strict control/mitigation of development costs coupled to a method of assuring that 'scope creep' is minimised... which CAN otherwise happen quite easily....

For instance: In 23 years I've met dozens of clients from all walks of life who think they can write a script. I've not met a single one who actually CAN! At least not to the stage it can actually be produced!

To try and run with an undeveloped script is asking for 'scope creep' to occur; usually dragging the budget out of control. Curiously the worst people for this are PR, Advertising, marketing and (oddly) those who have worked in broadcast news as reporters where 'winging' a story is the norm! As much as it's vital to meet the client's needs and to some degree their wants (which aren't always the same thing) it's important to protect yourself from having your goodwill abused to the extent you're put upon. It's also important to have contratural control over client-imposed scope creep.

In 23 years we've had two projects fail; both for the same reason. Both were for Ad Agencies/PR firms who insisted that they (and much against my better judgement were allowed to) hire us on a 'facilities only' basis... i.e. we had little or no input into the scripting, scheduling or management of the shoot...

The result was a lack of direction with attempts to 'penny pinch' on the shoot that not only caused the material shot to be rushed and of poorer quality than would otherwise have been achieved; but actualy drove costs through the roof. That coupled to a lack of control over the end client (allowing them to micromanage the shoot) meant the programmes spent between four and eight times as long in post production...

You've just experienced a similar scenario... A lack of boundaries has caused the cost (albeit the cost to you) to spiral...

Of course it's impractical to give the same level of attention to a casual enquiry about costs as it is to a respond to a serious enquiry from somone who has a firm need to be met... One should certainly not be dismissive of the former!

For some, publishing a rate card can be a useful way of indicating where the ballpark is before we get into the potentially timewasting-for-everyone business of creating bespoke quotes...

 

[Mike Lewis]

For some, publishing a rate card can be a useful way of indicating where the ballpark is before we get into the potentially timewasting-for-everyone business of creating bespoke quotes...

Matt, that's a very good idea.

A few years ago, I decided to put a "fee guide" for my services on my website. The immediate effect was a big drop in the number of enquiries. But there was no change in the amount of work I got. Obviously, people for whom the fee was too high no longer bothered to submit an enquiry -- saving time for them and me.

Mike

 

[Gutsy]

Thanks guys for all of the above information! I think this is invaluable to everyone, particularly the many virtual assistants on here, so I hope they all come and take a look. Yes - in hindsight, I did make a mistake and not get all the correct information. Thanks for the clarification here - in future, I'll draw up a list of information I'll need from the client before going ahead with quoting. I usually attach T&C with the quote and that works pretty well - I used to charge for the job only after I'd done it, which doesn't really work well if you want to get paid in the same year - so changed it a couple years ago to 50% up front and 50% on completion, which works well.

I like the idea of putting rates card on my site from the client's perspective, but we have a big problem in the virtual industry with people undercutting to get the job, simply because the industry is inundated with newbie VAs and trannies at the moment and I think this might not be good for me - will give it some thought (and this is precisely the reason why I've made the decision, in recent months, to move more towards proofreading as a service I offer).

Thanks again everybody!

 

[stugster]

Hi Guys,

This thread is full of some fantastic information and useful business advice. I'm going to sticky it for future reference