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Two simple SEO things that lots do badly

dotsno

New Member
I usually start the week by annoying myself finding websites of web design companies that claim to be search engine optimisation (SEO) experts and then checking out their client sites. I really hate to see people who have been tempted into buying professional services from firms that really don't know what they're doing well enough: this is usually just because people don't arm themselves with some basic knowledge beforehand. Please please do: before you spend money on web services, find out from someone else (who's not providing those services!) what the basics are.. web forums like SBF can be really good for helping you to get some impartial advice for free.

If you have had your site "SEO'd" by someone, please as an initial thing just go and check two really simple things. To an SEO expert, this will be the most basic boring dull simple stuff but if *this* is wrong, chances are you've got other bigger problems that your SEO firm should have sorted out! There is absolutely no reason on the planet that you would have this knowledge if you're not an SEO bod and haven't attended a workshop or read forums/books about it, or done some other training, so don't be embarrassed if you haven't checked or if you've got it wrong.. you can't be expected to know this stuff already.

HOW TO CHECK YOUR SITE'S TITLES

Let's just do it: take your domain name and stick "site:" before it - type that into Google, eg search Google for:

site:mydomainnamehere.com

No spaces, no quotes around it. You'll see all the pages from your site that Google has indexed. The titles that appear above each entry, underlined, are what you can control. You can control other bits too, but let's start with that as the page title is pretty important.

If they are all exactly the same you are missing out big time.

Can you imagine going into a book shop and trying to find the book you want if every single one had the same title on the outside? No, that's dumb, right? So if your SEO company has done that to your website then get a refund.

If they have your brand name in the title and nothing else, or the only bit that changes is one little word on the end like "Home" or "Products" or something equally meaningless, that's a sin too: these titles should be understandable by people and should describe what is on the *page* in some decent detail, not be the same across the whole site.

Remember, if you're doing SEO yourself, to optimise on a page-by-page basis. Think very carefully about the title of the individual page. A bit of training in SEO could well save you a lot of money by understanding yourself how it works - even if you then get a professional to do it, which can save a lot of time. You will then at least be armed with the knowledge of what to check for to make sure you've got a good job.

E-COMMERCE SITES THAT MINIMISE YOUR PROFITS

The second thing which frustrates me on a Monday morning is web companies that say they know about e-commerce and so give clients a standard off-the-shelf e-commerce engine that is not SEO'd - so you end up with loads of product and catalogue pages all with the same title and with loads of question marks and "productID=39" type stuff in the web address of the page. Again, you're missing out, make your web addresses human-friendly too.

I know this not because of some theory but because I've got a site where all the URLs looked like blah.com/member.cgi?who=58&page=photos&no=4 - hundreds of the pages were indexed by Google... but as soon as I then changed all these into pages like blah.com/ben/photos.html Google loved the site even more and *within days* that number of pages indexed had shot up and it now has 20,000 pages indexed. You'll see a vast improvement very quickly if you just do this one thing.

IN RETAIL?

I prefer to use the concept of "OREO" - and not just because they're cookies and yummy - that's Online Retail Engine Optimisation. SEO is all well and good, but a lot of web design firms know a bit about SEO but nothing about retail or coding e-commerce systems. You end up with lots of site visitors and a few sales, or what may seem like a lot of sales, but imagine how great it would be if you could sell ten times more really easily. You can, if your retail process is optimised and running smoothly. Off-the-shelf packages that plug into your website can seem to work very well, but if they're not SEO'd properly - and particularly if the entire retail engine isn't optimised precisely for your products, your target market and your sales philosophies, you won't be getting the most you could from your website.

And please, if you do SEO stuff, don't tell your clients you know what you're doing unless you really do :) Thanks!
 

stuarty

Banned
explain this then....w w w. beers-scotland . co . uk

(a real website)

Traffic from Search Engines = 90.85% - (i'll gladly give anyone the analytics data)

This is an off the shelf ecommerce website that outranks all the online real ale micro brewery web shops combined. It even outranks many of the major online beer sellers.

This site has the same page title and meta description on every single page. It even has dynamic URLs like "prodtype.asp?PT_ID= blah blah blah"

We swapped to unique page titles, descriptions and friendly urls a while ago and swapped back and you know what? It never made one single bit of difference to the number of pages Google indexed. It never made one bit of difference to rankings and it never made one bit of difference to traffic. Not one single bit!

So if your SEO company has done that to your website then get a refund.

Really?

Online Retail Engine Optimisation. SEO is all well and good, but a lot of web design firms know a bit about SEO but nothing about retail or coding e-commerce systems

Why exactly do they need to know about retail or coding ecommerce systems?

I don't need to be a plumber to optimise a plumbing company website do I?

Just about every off the shelf shopping cart these days comes with plugins that a 5 year old could use and all the on page SEO is done for you. Cactushop, zen cart, oscommerce etc all are search engine friendly so it's a piece of cake for any web designer to sell.

It's the SEOs that make out "ecommerce SEO" is something different and charging extra fees that should be questioned - not the web design firms. It's virtually no different nowadays to SEO'ing a bog standard website. The only different skill required for Google is to upload a data feed every month into the Google base.

Links are links, keywords are keywords and pages are pages. Optimising a webshop page is exactly the same as optimising any other web page.
 

peteark

Banned
Links are links, keywords are keywords and pages are pages. Optimising a webshop page is exactly the same as optimising any other web page.

Great read and amusing

In regards to the above line, I will say the problem (in my own opinion) with the online retail world is the general structure of the websites make optimisation difficult.

A website naturally needs its core strength pointing towards its homepage and then the selling pages. With ecommerce sites the selling pages can be 3 to 4 clicks down, a negative.

Then when you add in all the sub pages and the duplicate content issues, it forms an even greater problem.

I am currently working on introducing video to a site to combat these issues, I will report back on progress.
 
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I'm not a web design / SEO company and did all my site's SEO work myself after extensive research on the web..........to me link building is probably THE most important factor and is an ongoing, time consuming task so I can see the benefit of outsourcing this work to an expert company.

In doing my research, I came across this webpage which I found very helpful - others who, like myself, are trying to do their own SEO work may find it useful........SEO Advice

I'd be interested to hear what the resident SEO companies think about the info the page contains.......do you think it covers the main elements of SEO??

Apart from backlinks, title and description tags, what are the 2 most important SEO factors?
 

stuarty

Banned
With ecommerce sites the selling pages can be 3 to 4 clicks down, a negative

...the duplicate content issues, it forms an even greater problem.

Sorry Pete but I've never known any ecommerce site to suffer any negative SEO effects as a result of this.

Carts "have" to "page down" in this way - it's because of security processes, passing session info between pages and database normalisation. It's not possible to do it any other way.

A pain for the user - yes. Negative for SEO - no...all the work's done in plugins.

Dup content - the "SEO community" has known for years that duplicate content is a myth - Google even confirm this -> Google: Duplicate Content Penalty Does Not Exist
 

peteark

Banned
From my own standpoint the 2 most important SEO factors are

1. Has the business seen improved profitability since they commissioned my services

2. Has the business seen improved profitability since they commissioned my services

I see every process as important be that on-site optimisation, adding unique content, link building

What foundation could anyone have to say process A is more important that process B?
 

stuarty

Banned
to me link building is probably THE most important factor

Mate - you are 100% totally absolutely correct. You can get a website ranked using nothing but links.

Zero SEO - nada SEO - nichts SEO - no SEO at all - just links.

(Is linkbuilding SEO?)


Proof:
1. Google "click here" - adobe reader is the number 1 result
2. Click on the "cached" link in description

You will see a sentence saying "These terms only appear in links pointing to this page: click here"

The words "click here" are not used in the page anywhere.

The adobe website has millions of links using the term "Click here". This is the most definitive proof that links trump all factors combined.


If you want another example then Google the word "website" and perform the same excercise on the banksy.co.uk website.
 
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Mate - you are 100% totally absolutely correct. You can get a website ranked using nothing but links.

Zero SEO - nada SEO - nichts SEO - no SEO at all - just links.

(Is linkbuilding SEO?)


Proof:
1. Google "click here" - adobe reader is the number 1 result
2. Click on the "cached" link in description

You will see a sentence saying "These terms only appear in links pointing to this page: click here"

The words "click here" are not used in the page anywhere.

The adobe website has millions of links using the term "Click here". This is the most definitive proof that links trump all factors combined.


If you want another example then Google the word "website" and perform the same excercise on the banksy.co.uk website.

One of things that puts me off paying for SEO work is the ambiguity around it. Personally, I'm uncomfortable paying for something that I a) Can't actually see, b) have to wait an indefinite period of time for and, c) have no guarantees.

On many aspects of SEO, opinions amongst 'experts' vary but one thing they all seem to agree on is the importance of link building but despite this, SEO companies only seem to offer SEO work as a 'package' deal meaning you either get them to do everything or nothing.

Wouldn't it make sense to sell link building as a stand alone service and charge on a per link basis?

Customers would be able to clearly outline their requirements......eg. X amount of links only to websites offering relative or XX types of services with toolbar page ranks of >4 and could even argue that they should pay once the work is actually completed.

I appreciate SEO companies prefer to charge monthly for SEO work and that it is very time consuming but couldn't you apply this model to a link building service offering too?
 

peteark

Banned
I know 's forum well, he is a friend

The problem with DC is the wording of the phrase, it's not a penalty, more a restriction of strength

Send the same article to 10,000 sites and see how many backlinks are generated?


Here is an example of what I mean, in regards to the difficulties surrounding ecommerce sites, without going into the restrictions imposed by CMS

FOUNTAIN PEN DOMAIN - Discounted Fountain Pens is an online seller of (believe it or not) pens, I made up the URL

The homepage menu has a breakdown of specific models, ballpoint, fountain etc

The specific model page has a breakdown of types, parker, dunhill, mont blanc

The next page displays the colours

We then get to the actual item page, the place an item can be purchased

Problem areas

The more clicks down a site the more difficulty it is to hold page strength

Writing a good amount of unique content on all of these pages is nearly impossible.

Of course the use of robots.txt will help, the trouble is site owners hate no-index

To improve the situation on these type of sites, each page has to be given uniqueness, one of my clients is struggling with this as his site has 600,000 pages, hence I am working on video and a good quality deep linking campaign should be incorporated.



To give a true account on subjects like this you need to look at

Have you worked on these type of websites

What problems did the site owner have

What did you highlight as a problem area

What actions did you take

Did these actions have an improvement on the sites business

I am currently working on Wedding Jewellery, Costume Jewellery, Accessories and Gifts

I applied a good quality link building campaign (on going)

The code was made search engine friendly, where possible, (on going)

Content features have been applied

Unique content is being added

Result on Peter's business In 5 months the amount of online orders (approx) has gone from 75 to 200

Points to note

Not every website is based on software, some people are clever enough to produce bespoke ecommerce websites.

As always I find it important to back up theories with examples, it's too easy to sit and say I disagree with this or that, a common occurrence in the SEO world as the game of one-upmanship is ongoing in an attempt to build a client base.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

stuarty

Banned
From my own standpoint the 2 most important SEO factors are

We both sing from the same hymnsheet. Sadly there's not many "SEO's" that do.

However, the debate is this - is that the function of SEO or is it internet marketing/SEM?

We brand as the latter because almost daily we get stories from clients about rip-off SEOs. The term SEO is just a swear word now to so many companies out there.
 

peteark

Banned
One of things that puts me off paying for SEO work is the ambiguity around it. Personally, I'm uncomfortable paying for something that I a) Can't actually see, b) have to wait an indefinite period of time for and, c) have no guarantees.

Understandable this is why I make sure

1. A client can measure my performance,

2. Contact clients,

3. View my own website (ranks highly for ultra competitive phrases)

4. No contracts.

If they are then unsure, well its not in my hands, so I don't worry
 

stuarty

Banned
1. One of things that puts me off paying for SEO work is the ambiguity around it.

2. On many aspects of SEO, opinions amongst 'experts' vary but one thing they all seem to agree on is the importance of link building but despite this, SEO companies only seem to offer SEO work as a 'package' deal meaning you either get them to do everything or nothing.

3. Wouldn't it make sense to sell link building as a stand alone service and charge on a per link basis?

4.I appreciate SEO companies prefer to charge monthly for SEO work and that it is very time consuming but couldn't you apply this model to a link building service offering too?


1. Agreed - I'm no fan of these so called "SEOs" with little or no experience and crappy results.

Here's out model - we do "SEO" but we structure a plan. We look at things after 3 months and analyse, adjust, repland and restructure. You need at least 3 months data to work from. Ideally it should be over 13-15 months to spot annual trends, market peaks like mother's day, easter etc.

2. Not sure who you're dealing with but I know shed loads who will just do link building. A lot sub it out and hide behind it in a "package". It's tedious work.

You can lead a horse to water but can you make it drink?

We want clients we can shout about - hence why we wont take on anyone for just link building. There's no point and we can point them to somewhere in India. We have a vested interest in our clients. All our work is via word of mouth and proven by results. If we can't get an ROI for the client then we're not doing a good job. We tailor packages to suit their niche. Some might need PPC, linkbuilding, article marketing, display advertising - some might need different things. Some might need buzz created on a product - some might need seeding a professional article - it all varies.

3. Yes - why not if that's all you want to do. But why botrher if you can cut out the middle man and get someone in India to do it for you?

4. As part of a package - yes. Monthly SEO is meaured monthly and results etc tweaked. Good companies will sit with their clients, go through next steps and so on.
 
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Thanks for the insight guys.........lots of good points to consider!
 

peteark

Banned
I would like to get back to duplicate content and the difficulties that surround SEO and online retailers....lol
 

dotsno

New Member
Sorry for taking a while to get back on this: I've been totally offline for a few days in Englandshire! Anyway...

explain this then....w w w. beers-scotland . co . uk - Traffic from Search Engines = 90.85% - (i'll gladly give anyone the analytics data)

Explaining high percentage traffic from search engine figures is easy: if a site owner doesn't promote it in any other way so of course the only visitors (or most) will be from search engines.

The other ways are 'direct traffic' - ie from people typing in the web domain or clicking it in an email (if you send out no emails with it in, and nobody else does, and nobody thinks to type the web address speculatively or having been told about it, zero direct traffic) - and 'referred traffic' - ie links from other sites.

If you don't link to your site from other sites, and you don't promote it as a site to link to (why would you in this case because you quote on the opening page that it's not a real shop and so why would anyone link to it I suppose). You spaced the URL and as such it didn't turn into an actual clickable link in your post here, again reducing the likelihood of referred traffic (and direct traffic as few will bother to type it out) from SBF to www.beers-scotland.co.uk

If an SEO expert came to me and said "I'm so good that I can make 99.9% of all traffic come from Google organic search", fine, it's not particularly impressive until you know numbers. If 90% of traffic comes from Google and it's only 9 people per year, it's not quite so impressive. What are the numbers, not the percentages? And then we also need to ask important questions like what is the value of the users? What type of users are they? If it's an online shop are the users from organic search actually looking to buy, or are they looking for information, or for both? Which do they come for, which do they leave with? What drives the highest transaction value per customer - organic search or referred traffic? How much budget should be devoted to on-page SEO rather than other SEO tactics?

This is an off the shelf ecommerce website that outranks all the online real ale micro brewery web shops combined. It even outranks many of the major online beer sellers.

Outranks? In what way, for which keywords, or in terms of sales, new visitors vs returning ones, actual profitability?
 

dotsno

New Member
We swapped to unique page titles, descriptions and friendly urls a while ago and swapped back and you know what? It never made one single bit of difference to the number of pages Google indexed. It never made one bit of difference to rankings and it never made one bit of difference to traffic. Not one single bit!

Again I can't comment much on this as I don't know precisely what you did. I'm surprised you saw no changes - how long was your trial? I've checked back through the Web Archive and couldn't see any changes relating to it going back 5 years, though that excludes 2008 as there's no archive of the site there - the very fact the pages hadn't changed much over the 10 years the site has been live has no doubt enabled Google to index everything more fully.

Google does index pages with question marks and lists of parameters - I've had a site where it indexes pages with many additional things stuffed on the end, but not all of them, in fact a very sparse number. Over time it builds it up, slowly. And in general what I said was optimise for humans too - it's a person that is going to click your link. With a human-friendly title that applies to the page content and a human-friendly URL listed, you're helping users to click on your link rather than someone else's.

If I search the web for "Heather Ale" and there's a page saying "Buy Fraoch's Heather Ale and other great ales" and another - even possibly above it - saying "Buy Beers and Real Ales Online", I'd probably click the Heather Ale one first... it's what I searched for and Google highlights in the title the keywords I've typed in. You may well be number 1 for a given term, but the number 2 may well get more clicks because it has a more relevant title in the user's mind.

The www.beers-scotland.co.uk site is 10 years old and so will have a lot of trust with Google, and obviously for keywords like 'beer' and 'scotland' it's going to rank highly through the URL, the fact Google is probably smart enough to realise it's a tightly focused site all about beer makes it a clear choice for a good broad-based resource about Scottish beers. There's clear on-page SEO and some things that Google will love - including perhaps that the domain owner is "Beers Scotland" too and the DMOZ (The Open Directory Project) listing is "Beers". Obviously nobody knows how Google exactly works or to what it gives particular ratings or weight, but these are all good possibilities.

Optimisation, to me, means getting it the best it can be.. not getting it to a point where it works fantastically today and is 'good enough' to get high rankings today. Who knows what Google will do with its algorithm tomorrow to send loads of sites crashing through the floor: SEO should surely be about giving a site the best chance in as broad a way as possible.

I didn't really say though that having the page titles all the same would not make you rank highly on its own, I said you were missing out big time - missing out on potential clicks, and on the opportunity to get some key words and phrases in the title too, having lots of different calls to action specific to the particular page.

I noted that on my Scotster social network, someone had started a topic a little while back about Scottish ales.. seeing the topic name they'd chosen to give it, I did a Google search for Scottish Real Ales and was actually quite stunned to see that topic listed in 12th position. Putting quotes around it and searching for "Scottish Real Ales" my site was the 4th different site on Google's first page. Your beer-scotland.co.uk resource was of course top for both, but then I think my search shows the power of optimising the titles and URLs - even a site that is nothing to do with beer in general, has 20,000+ vastly different pages on a plethora of subjects, can still get a page fairly high on Google mainly through its title and URL policy.

I may well, given that, conduct a few more experiments to see if a more focused attempt at discussing particular beers and ales of Scotland can push the site to page 1 for more beer related queries ;)
 

dotsno

New Member
Why exactly do they need to know about retail or coding ecommerce systems? I don't need to be a plumber to optimise a plumbing company website do I?

Probably not. You just need to know the right questions to ask of the plumber and of people looking for plumbing services. Maybe being a plumber would help with that as you could chuck up some extra ideas and know the task at hand inside out but I'm sure you'd do a fantastic job either way!

It's the SEOs that make out "ecommerce SEO" is something different and charging extra fees that should be questioned - not the web design firms. It's virtually no different nowadays to SEO'ing a bog standard website. Links are links, keywords are keywords and pages are pages. Optimising a webshop page is exactly the same as optimising any other web page.

I'll make it clear again, I don't sell SEO services, whether ecommerce or not - I do consider search engines when dealing with my own websites.

Optimising a webshop page is, as you say, exactly the same as optimising any other web page. Headings are headings, bullet lists are bullet lists, titles are titles, pages are pages. The technical details of what you do, what you might do on other parts of the site, features you may add to the page, off-page SEO, link-building, whatever, all may well all be roughly the same.

However, and - as we discussed elsewhere on another topic I'm not lumping you or anyone on this forum in with this - but what a lot of "cowboy" SEO fails to consider is the consequences of what happens after the person has "landed". There's that old phrase about leading a horse to water but can you get it to drink... well, you can dump someone straight into a particular page within a website thanks to fantastic SEO, but my original posting mentioned focusing instead on the entire retail process... if SEO is treated as a standalone item it can end up not giving users an experience that will then lead them to buy; and this may be the most important thing for the retailer - I'll give an example later. The SEO has to include considering what content is on the page that may then generate a sale, not just getting the person to a product page because it's been optimised to death for certain key words.

There are other issues, though perhaps this example may be a tad specific. When my company was working with the original owners of the Gossard Bra brand, many years ago, the initial e-commerce strategy had to consider not only buyers, but also browsers - and not just women browsing for bras to buy, nor men browsing to buy their wives or girlfriends stuff, but rather men (and I guess women) browsing the pictures purely for titillation. There are bandwidth and cost implications of high browse-to-buy ratios in retail. Men also shop for bras for their partners in different ways to how their female partners shop for bras, and it was a potential challenge presenting each gender with content that may stimulate a purchase, and the strategy for getting people to individual pages had to bear that in mind and look at quite specific bra retail issues.

Canadian Tire - a huge retail chain in Canada - has recently decided to pull its entire e-commerce operation because of the high cost of maintaining it, stating that it was generating a lot of visits from people researching products and not buying them, whether online or in store. I find that somewhat hard to believe, but that's the official line (and indeed, when I mentioned this on Twitter, a Canadian Tire representative spelled out precisely that as the reason).

So, Canadian Tire, one of the first major companies in the world to go into the realms of e-commerce, may well have had the best SEO in the world, but it wasn't doing much for their online retail sales, or being backed up - so they believe from research I presume - by offline sales. The reason was not bad technical SEO, but perhaps content that was inappropriate for generating a sale or SEO'd for the product at the expense of considering the retail call to action.

While SEOing the pages may well be the same as for any other project, there are huge issues with retail sales online and SEO can impact on them both in a positive and a negative way - they may be the same from a technician's point of view (ie the actual technical aspects of what is done) but from a business and retail sales perspective, SEO for e-commerce needs to bear in mind the ultimate goal - that may well be research only and no sales, but the content and optimisation needs to reflect the strategy of the business and the desired audience (think bras!).
 

dotsno

New Member
FINALLY... sorry for all the long posts; I had a lot of thoughts from the comments made since my opening posting - it would probably be easier to chat about this over a pint rather than in text as there are a number of fine-grained points; when's the next SBF get-together?! :)
 
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