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In house web person costs

Adventurelife

Adventurelife

New Member
Anyone any idea of a in house webmaster

Not looking for a zen master just a young person who can do th following

1. Update websites
2. Produce content
3. Work with all online media/photography/video tools
4. Have a bit of marketing ability
5. Link build
6. Be able to grow into the role

Anyone know any college courses that produce the above?

What is expect salary range in that industry?

Thanks

Peter
 
In a word no; There is no legitimate course that turns out people who are fully professionally competent in all of these things. If there were it would be ten years long and well out of date by the time people graduated!

An expert coder is not necessarily (some would say probably not!) an expert content producer or designer.... Is not a marketing expert... is not etc etc etc .... Jack of all trades was master of none! And that's never more true than in the creative industries; DESPITE the myths certain individuals and even certain software/hardware salesmen like to perpetuate....

Each of the roles you've described is a course in itself. And whilst, for instance, we teach some web design to multimedia production students and marketing to TV students that's more so as they can readily interface with web design and marketing specialists rather than any attempt to turn them into the creative equivalent of a Swiss Army Knife. A tool which whilst in itself is highly flexible, adaptable and useful in limited circumstances is NO REAL SUBSTITUTE for the right tool for the job!

You're asking for someone to cut across what are at the competent professional end of the market three highly specialised roles. So, yes; while you'll definitely find people who can do all of these things to some degree. And possibly one or two of them well. My opinion of anyone who claims to be expert enough at them all that they can function at a professional level is that they're either delusional, desperate or dishonest.

If you MUST employ someone You probably can make most use of a web designer trained to at least HND level. But get somone with two or three years experience in an established agency. Hire in the content producers. For one they'll produce far more credible results and steer you well clear of dangerous waters as far as matters such IPR management is concerned. But even then you have the problem of co-ordinating this...

If you really DO feel you need someone who can co-ordinate the activities you've described you need someone senior who knows the ropes and the pitfalls. Even then you will still be hiring in things like specialist coding and SEO skills. So you're looking more at a technical manager's role... Personally; (and no I'm not looking! it would take a LOT of persuading to get me to shift!!) I'd be looking for somewhere in the £50K-60K range plus a relocation package. I'd expect competent new entrants with a strong portfolio to be looking (as operatives) for upwards of £20K in the first instance rising to at least £30K in three years...

You WILL get people who will work cheaper. You'll get daft kids who THINK they're web designers and video producers and photographers who'll work for minimum wage. But really; the old adage about paying peanuts never held more true. And sadly there are a LOT of wanabee creatives out there!!! A LOT!

I think you MAY find a cheaper (and possibly better) approach is to gather together a pool of independent freelancers who will work together to produce the various elements you need on contract. Essentially this is what any credible web designer, content producer or PR/Marketing consultant will do for you anyway. And most creatives are used to working this way.

What you spend employing someone to fill these roles badly would more than pay for a team of experts with none of the capital investment, none of the risk and none of the hassle of employing someone!

Can I suggest giving John Franchetti at Almond a call? They may be a useful contact for you anyway but they have a strong new media track record and would be able to advise on a suitable strategy for you. 0131 553 5523. almond - welcome

THAT or start pulling together some of the web designers, creatives and SEO people that are here....
 

alanbold

New Member
Hi, I totally agree with Matt. Every word actually. The only thing you dont mention is whether you or someone in your organisation has the expertise in the areas you list and if so would they then be mentoring and training the prospective new person?
 
Gordon N

Gordon N

New Member
I would say you could wipe half of your requirements out in one swoop by implementing a content management system. These are a straight forward job for a designer/developer to put together for a fixed fee.

As far as content production is concerned I would have to say I agree with Matt, find yourself a good copy writer, or find someone in your workforce that has the makings of a good content producer and invest in them (training etc).

Link building and marketing I like to keep control of myself, it can be time consuming at the beginning but the key is not to link build too quickly as it can be seen as spamming anyway. Pick and choose your potential links carefully (can be done in the evening easily) and that pretty much just leaves the marketing side.

Merry Christmas, I've just saved you a small fortune! :)

If you want more info on the Content Management side of things fire me a PM with some details of what facilities you would like to offer on the site and I will give you a few pointers as to how to take it forward.

Hope this helps,

Gordon

(Formerly known on SBF as moraywebsolutions!)
 
RedEvo

RedEvo

New Member
1. Update websites
Pretty much any computer literate person can do this with a CMS - as someone else pointed out.

2. Produce content
If you can steer them they needn't be an accomplished journalist. Keyword research will play its part here but the tools are available to help. With guidance it's dooable.

3. Work with all online media/photography/video tools
The tools to create decent videos etc are very easy to use. I'm not talking about corporate quality but an inexpensive video camera and something simple. It depends on your expectation.

4. Have a bit of marketing ability
There is a ton of info online about marketing websites. Sure it's a challenge but again it's dooable.

5. Link build
Very time consuming but the info for doing it is out there.

6. Be able to grow into the role
The role you've described requires the person to grow.

In short you could hire experts in every field and shell out a shed load of cash. Alternatively you could find someone to run with this and make a fist of it so long as you supported them. Let's face it, small businesses do this all the time, we have to!!

I'd offer £25-£30k and offer structured support and training. Someone who's shown aptitude and the desire to grow in other roles will chase a role like this. Vet carefully and good luck.

d
 
If you can steer them they needn't be an accomplished journalist. Keyword research will play its part here but the tools are available to help. With guidance it's dooable.

The priorities of decent content in a marketing sense are often at odds with the priorities of SEO. "Keyword Research" is just a part of the SEO process. It's not copy writing, it's not marketing and it's not ultimately selling your product. Getting visitors to stop and listen to your pitch is one thing. Actually pitching to them is another. Which is why you need people with expertise in both fields. No, they needn't be an accomplished journalist, but they should be an accomplished copywriter with a sound grasp of marketing principals.

The tools to create decent videos etc are very easy to use. I'm not talking about corporate quality but an inexpensive video camera and something simple. It depends on your expectation.

The tools to make badly shot, badly edited, badly lit home movies with incidentals that could well land you in enough bother to bankrupt you are indeed really easy to use. And to evidence this the net is, quite frankly plastered with such shitey wee home movies. As well as crap photaes and tasteless graphics to 'prove' that you don't need photographers or graphics artists either!

On the video side (just for the record) what was once thought of as 'Corporate Quality' is the minimum standard any professional user should reach if they're to be credible. That's ESPECIALLY true if your target audience are corporate, high-ticket users in their own right. It's nowhere near as expensive as it used to be. But my advice is that if you can't reach "Corporate Quality" then don't use video at all. You'll only succeed in tagging your business as half-assed, amateurish and disconnected from the realities of the corporate world...

There is a ton of info online about marketing websites. Sure it's a challenge but again it's dooable.

Very time consuming but the info for doing it is out there.

The info for doing most things is 'out there'.

Unless you're really quite foolhardy, if you've a serious plumbing job to do you hire a time served plumber! Yes; B&Q sell all the bits, the library's full of books on the subject and it's not at all hard to teach yourself to get to a certain level. There are certainly bits and pieces you can do yourself.... That's IF you have the time to waste and can afford to f**k it up. There's a certain DIY genius not half a mile from me who's DIY central heating system recently cost him nearly £40K after making a basic mistake and flooding his downstairs neighbour!

And ask ANY tradesman how much money they make sorting out the messes people make trying to cut corners ! Mind you DIY Disasters to provide some folk with lucrative programme material and the rest of us with a good laugh! :001_rolleyes:
 
The role you've described requires the person to grow.

In short you could hire experts in every field and shell out a shed load of cash. Alternatively you could find someone to run with this and make a fist of it so long as you supported them. Let's face it, small businesses do this all the time, we have to!!

I'd offer £25-£30k and offer structured support and training. Someone who's shown aptitude and the desire to grow in other roles will chase a role like this. Vet carefully and good luck.

You'd offer who exactly £25K-30K? HOw big's your shed? :blink: Frankly for that sort of budget you should be able to retain one of the smaller agencies who will routinely source the appropriate skilled people to fill all the individual roles. In fact I'll happily introduce you to a former creative director at one of Scotland's biggest and most prestigious agencies who has an M.A. and well over 30 years experience of working at world class corporate level. He's setting up another new agency in early 2009 targeting the same sector as I do...

Yes; people will chase that sort of job, especially at that sort of money. But, as I suggested earlier, this is FAR too broad a set of requirements to attract anyone credible.

Anyone who is properly trained, qualified and legitimately competent in any of the relevant fields will realise this; and probably back away from the employer. The role as stated IS almost certainly doomed to fail; and that failure would severely damage the career of the person who takes it on. For that reason the only people who will be attracted to the job are (as I said) the desperate, the deluded and the dishonest. Mostly, it has to be said, the deluded.

Now, despite the high-end track record what I currently run is a small business. And yes there are aspects of it that where a 'corner shop mentality' gets things done... But only at a level. I don't target the corporate market per se... Although almost all of my clients are, like the OP, doing just that.... What corporate work I do get comes in on track record and through agencies. However; WERE I to raise the bar (and my prices) and target that sector I'd have to change my game DRAMATICALLY.

You speak of ongoing training and support. Yet clearly the OP is seeking to invest in this sort of expertise in-house and is not at a level themselves to provide that. So where does the support come from and at what price? This could easily add another £10K-£15K to the cost of this new employee.

Even for someone in my own position who IS expert in one of these fields and IS an experienced teacher; the time factor involved in providing that training and support will easily absorb £8K's worth of my time; and that's in addition to the other overheads of supporting that employee, buying in other training providers and packages etc...

For argument's sake we'll say the employee's on £24K .... which is low for this area but hey. You've the other overheads of employing them; insurance costs, space, equipment as well as the more obvious ones...

If you've a video company on contract you'll most probably get agency rates which are 10%-15% below rack rates. Same goes for copywriters and photographers. I'll let some of the SEO experts and Web designers comment on how much site management you'll get for £12K a year. Suppose we buy about £300 worth of a copywriter's time every month? (£3600) get a video company to gather footage three times a year (another £3600) Photography another say £1800 and maybe the same for graphics... £22,800 so far..... Really push the boat out and get the ever-increasing video library updated every other month by doing a re-edit... another £3600.... All comes to £26,400

Which is an only-slightly bigger shed that the £24K some random code monkey will cost...

And on the video side at least that spend will not only get you half a dozen short programmes at "Corporate Level"; But full 1080 high definition suitable for Blu-Ray AND transcoded to DVD AND transcoded to whatever web format you desire....



Go figure; as they will insist on saying in the 'States.... :)
 
RedEvo

RedEvo

New Member
Thanks for your thoughts on this. It makes interesting reading.

d
 
Adventurelife

Adventurelife

New Member
In a word no; There is no legitimate course that turns out people who are fully professionally competent in all of these things. If there were it would be ten years long and well out of date by the time people graduated!

An expert coder is not necessarily (some would say probably not!) an expert content producer or designer.... Is not a marketing expert... is not etc etc etc .... Jack of all trades was master of none! And that's never more true than in the creative industries; DESPITE the myths certain individuals and even certain software/hardware salesmen like to perpetuate....

Each of the roles you've described is a course in itself. And whilst, for instance, we teach some web design to multimedia production students and marketing to TV students that's more so as they can readily interface with web design and marketing specialists rather than any attempt to turn them into the creative equivalent of a Swiss Army Knife. A tool which whilst in itself is highly flexible, adaptable and useful in limited circumstances is NO REAL SUBSTITUTE for the right tool for the job!

You're asking for someone to cut across what are at the competent professional end of the market three highly specialised roles. So, yes; while you'll definitely find people who can do all of these things to some degree. And possibly one or two of them well. My opinion of anyone who claims to be expert enough at them all that they can function at a professional level is that they're either delusional, desperate or dishonest.

If you MUST employ someone You probably can make most use of a web designer trained to at least HND level. But get somone with two or three years experience in an established agency. Hire in the content producers. For one they'll produce far more credible results and steer you well clear of dangerous waters as far as matters such IPR management is concerned. But even then you have the problem of co-ordinating this...

If you really DO feel you need someone who can co-ordinate the activities you've described you need someone senior who knows the ropes and the pitfalls. Even then you will still be hiring in things like specialist coding and SEO skills. So you're looking more at a technical manager's role... Personally; (and no I'm not looking! it would take a LOT of persuading to get me to shift!!) I'd be looking for somewhere in the £50K-60K range plus a relocation package. I'd expect competent new entrants with a strong portfolio to be looking (as operatives) for upwards of £20K in the first instance rising to at least £30K in three years...

You WILL get people who will work cheaper. You'll get daft kids who THINK they're web designers and video producers and photographers who'll work for minimum wage. But really; the old adage about paying peanuts never held more true. And sadly there are a LOT of wanabee creatives out there!!! A LOT!

I think you MAY find a cheaper (and possibly better) approach is to gather together a pool of independent freelancers who will work together to produce the various elements you need on contract. Essentially this is what any credible web designer, content producer or PR/Marketing consultant will do for you anyway. And most creatives are used to working this way.

What you spend employing someone to fill these roles badly would more than pay for a team of experts with none of the capital investment, none of the risk and none of the hassle of employing someone!

Can I suggest giving John Franchetti at Almond a call? They may be a useful contact for you anyway but they have a strong new media track record and would be able to advise on a suitable strategy for you. 0131 553 5523. almond - welcome

THAT or start pulling together some of the web designers, creatives and SEO people that are here....


Agree with what you say and I am used to outsourcing both large scale and over the last few years small scale. However, the true skill in outsourcing project is having someone pulling it all together and the the execution works. At present I use outsource and doing the project management myself.

However I am looking to remove myself from the business so I can just focus on strategy.

Hence looking to bed someone in who is young and can grow into the role. I am willing to accept limitations as they will be young and inexperienced.

Would like to have a team but £ does not allow. I have also experienced many highly qualified, highly paid people who at the end of the day could just not deliver at the level their salary justified. Next years team has a bunch of us in the past 40 range going down hill rapidly ;) A few core guys in their 30's and some learning their trade in their mid/late 20's. It would be good to have some young up person who have be brought up in a web age rather than us lot who have had to learn it;)
 
Adventurelife

Adventurelife

New Member
Hi, I totally agree with Matt. Every word actually. The only thing you dont mention is whether you or someone in your organisation has the expertise in the areas you list and if so would they then be mentoring and training the prospective new person?

I would not call any of us experts at any of the areas but we do have people work for us who have an input into each area.

Small company so it will be swim or sink position and needs someone with attitude as well as we can all be unforgiving at times and I would not describe our working environment as a normal one. It appeals to some and scares of many.
 
Adventurelife

Adventurelife

New Member
I would say you could wipe half of your requirements out in one swoop by implementing a content management system. These are a straight forward job for a designer/developer to put together for a fixed fee.

As far as content production is concerned I would have to say I agree with Matt, find yourself a good copy writer, or find someone in your workforce that has the makings of a good content producer and invest in them (training etc).

Link building and marketing I like to keep control of myself, it can be time consuming at the beginning but the key is not to link build too quickly as it can be seen as spamming anyway. Pick and choose your potential links carefully (can be done in the evening easily) and that pretty much just leaves the marketing side.

Merry Christmas, I've just saved you a small fortune! :)

If you want more info on the Content Management side of things fire me a PM with some details of what facilities you would like to offer on the site and I will give you a few pointers as to how to take it forward.

Hope this helps,

Gordon

(Formerly known on SBF as moraywebsolutions!)

Hi

We already have content management systems it is just time consuming as I currently do it myself. Research then produce content then post. We also have several websites and will have many more next year so although the CMS is a great help it is still a daily updating job.

The marketing and link building again I have done myself and I want to get someone to develop into this as it is hugely time consuming.

Creating good copy is an area where whoever does the role will need help.
 
Agree with what you say and I am used to outsourcing both large scale and over the last few years small scale. However, the true skill in outsourcing project is having someone pulling it all together and the the execution works. At present I use outsource and doing the project management myself.

However I am looking to remove myself from the business so I can just focus on strategy.

Hence looking to bed someone in who is young and can grow into the role. I am willing to accept limitations as they will be young and inexperienced.

Would like to have a team but £ does not allow. I have also experienced many highly qualified, highly paid people who at the end of the day could just not deliver at the level their salary justified. Next years team has a bunch of us in the past 40 range going down hill rapidly ;) A few core guys in their 30's and some learning their trade in their mid/late 20's. It would be good to have some young up person who have be brought up in a web age rather than us lot who have had to learn it;)

Only past 40 and going downhill??? :laugh: What does your industry do to destroy people so quickly ;) I know of an 82 year old who, two or thee times a week cycles from Balerno to the car park that leads to the Cauldstane slap and back again"...:p:p:p

Kidding aside; quite apart from the specialist skills involved at the level you're targeting you need to recognise that what you're doing is only possible because of the years of experience and key skills you have built up. Pulling all these elements together is a management function. And you need to replace like with like. 'Apprenticing' someone is very possible. But bear in mind it will take up to half a decade before they can be considered a 'journeyman'.

Even someone brought up in a 'Web Age' has to learn. And learn from the ground up. Through a process that seems to be almost one of osmosis many kids today will be computer literate, able to build simple websites and have 'caught on' to some or other aspect of the 'site management' process. But it is only ALMOST osmosis. In my experience they've often been taught to run before they can walk. And sometimes all that running heads them straight for a major tumble! One of the things WE often face in colleges is the smart ass kid who imagines they know it all. And I've yet to meet one where imagination wasn't all there was to it! They have to learn so as to see the whole picture and not just a part of it. That's why the course are the length they are and have the limitations they have.

In truth the rules and disciplines that surround the production and management of modern multimedia/multi platform media assets are no different from those that surrounded the production of fixed platform assets 30 or 40 years ago.

You need to replace yourself with someone of at least equal calibre; perhaps with some addition specialist skills. That isn't going to be a kid.

Strategically thoughts would tend towards trying to devolve responsibility to those late/30s/40s guys you're convinced are rolling down the hill allowing that devolution to trickle right through the organisation. This will free up space at the bottom where a youngster could come in.

Realistically, IMHO, It's either that or find the right agent to devolve these functions to. You say you want to take a step back to concentrate on strategy? Which tend s to suggest you're looking to up your game? Again, bear in mind that will mean upping performance across many of the business functions. Not least of which will be marketing and promotion. There's no 'corner shop' answer to this; not for the sector you're addressing.
 
Adventurelife

Adventurelife

New Member
Hi Guys

Thanks for all the advise above. Quick update we are interviewing a student from a business school for a 9 month placement with one of our smaller businesses so we will be able to have a look at what universities are passing out. All be it a Dutch business school.

I am also meeting a few agencies starting tomorrow to discuss ways of delivering what needs doing in the larger business.
 
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