Any dreamweaver guru's here

Dizzydiza · Feb 15, 2009

I am self taught and have very little computer knowledge so the language you use will have to be for "Dummies"
I am creating a template in dreamweaver.....my first ever template!
I am trying to sort my meta tags but I am not sure exactly where they are supposed to go.....this is what I have on the template

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>

<title></title>



<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"></head>

Do my meta tags go immediately after the meta tag regarding "Content Type" or do I put them between this >< which comes after TemplateBeginEditable name="head"?

I read that if I want to edit my meta tags so that they are different on each page then I need to insert another Editable section with the name "MetaTags"....if so will this show within the editable region of the "head"?

Please advise...thank you
Diana

Dizzydiza · Feb 15, 2009

I just thought of another question.....well not really, google just confused me. If I insert google analytics on to the template will it still read each page as individual visits. I read something about inflated results, it kinda went whoosh.

Gordon N · Feb 15, 2009

I put all my meta immediately above the <title> tag so I can keep them organised. By the looks of your template you already have an editible region for your document title, just squeeze the meta in there and you will be able to change each page individually, or if you want you can make another editible region for them it's up to you.

As far as analytics is concerned there should not be an issue with including it through a template - it is no different to copying and pasting it on each page anyway! Plus if they ever change there code it is easier to update your whole site. :thumbup:

Hope this helps!

Gordon N · Feb 15, 2009

Also I would change your DOCTYPE to XHTML, it's better accepted and provides a more consistant results across different browsers. Open your main template file, go to the Modify menu, select 'Page Properties' and in the 'Title/Coding' tab you will find a dropdown menu offering you all the different DTD options - change it to XHTML 1.0 Transitional. You can select strict if you want, but if your going to be validating your code later it will throw up more errors - we can cross that one in the future if you want?

Have fun!

Dizzydiza · Feb 15, 2009

Thanks Gordon for your quick reply......so it doesnt really matter where in the "head" the meta tags go then?

So should I also move the "Content Type" up above the "Title" also to keep it all nice and tidy?

Thank you for the other tip I will do that also

Gordon N · Feb 15, 2009

I am a bit fussy with things like code position so I would move it above the title, but that's just me - as long as it is in the head section its fine.

All my files follow the same rules - partly so I know where to find things no matter what site/file I am working on...

Code:

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" />
<meta [COLOR="Green"]All my meta tags between the charset above, and the title...[/COLOR] />
<title></title>
<link [COLOR="Green"]then its all my link tags...[/COLOR] />
<script> [COLOR="Green"]All my script tags - [U]except[/U] Analytics[/COLOR] </script>
</head>
<body>

My analytics code always goes at the bottom just before the </body> so that the page content is loaded first without the analytics load time effecting the site users load time.

Like I say - a bit fussy, that's my 'attention to detail' characteristic that I took away from the RAF!! :blushing:

Dizzydiza · Feb 15, 2009

Ah I didnt realise analytics could slow down a page loading.....I think I may have it installed on the wrong bit of the coding anyway and at present I dont have it on every page.
By the way when I go to page properties I cant see what you are talking about
The boxes are as follows
Title
Background Image
Background
Text
Links
Visited Links
Active links
Left Margin
Margin Width
Top Margin
Margin Height
Document Encoding which has a drop down list but nothing in it like what you have explained. It says at the moment Western Latin 1
Tracing Image
Image Transparency

Dizzydiza · Feb 15, 2009

Dont worry about the last question I managed to sort it by recreating the template so the it is a XHTML so it has up dated the whole website.
I still havent finished the website yet as I have new content to add but I will let everyone have a wee look when its done. Oh and everyone will have to be kind as I am an amateur

stuarty · Feb 19, 2009

Gordon N said:
I would move it above the title, but that's just me - as long as it is in the head section its fine.

Strictly - the title tag should come before meta data. This is why dreamweaver sets them up in this order they bfollow the w3c protocols. If you change the order then you create extra work for searchbots - but it's no big deal.

Gordon N · Feb 19, 2009

I think this must depend on what version you are using then, as CS4 certainly puts the default meta above the title. I enter all my meta manually, but if you choose to use the menus to insert it, the content is placed at your cursor - not in the header.

During my Master CIW Designer course we spent a great deal of time looking through and familiarising ourselves with the W3C standards, and I make every effort possible to comply with their guidelines (they are not strictly protocols). I have never come across anything that states that meta should be placed after the title. In the guidelines for the structure of an XHTML document it does state that both should be placed in the header section, but there is no mention of order/sequence that I can see.

I'm not trying to be awkward, quite the opposite in fact... If you can point me to some evidence of what you are saying I will gladly change my ways and thank you for correcting my methods!

Dizzydiza · Feb 19, 2009

In my version of dreamweaver the title does come before the meta tags but there's was no problem with changing the order. I bow down to you professionals to keep me advised. You will have to excuse me though....I do feel a bit smug with what I have done so far with being self taught

stuarty · Feb 20, 2009

Gordon N said:
adobe cs4

I haven't used dreamweaver for years so I can't comment.

Gordon N said:
In the guidelines for the structure of an XHTML document it does state that both should be placed in the header section, but there is no mention of order/sequence that I can see.

You had to ask didn't you?

xhtml is not the "global" structure - it's one of many declarations the the global structure. You would need to plough through all that bumff possibly going back to the birth of the web page.. I'm sure I could dig it up if I had the time. The order should be in the "head profile" docs somehwere.Anyway, the w3c docs have changed and been revised countless times.

Search engines used to search on page titles before meta data.

Meta data was introduced into the head profile about 10 years ago as a teaching and parental control on content. Later search engines added it to title searches as it added more data for ranking pages. Title always was and still is the most important tag in the global structure.

Almost all search engines ignore meta tags now so where they are placed makes little or no difference.

Google in particular consider all meta tags as optional and they have absolutely no effect on rank. Proof hereand here. (you could always plough through their patents for more proof).

Google also has something called the duplicate content penalty - countless sites have hundreds of pages with identical meta tags - does it ban these? No.

It still puzzles me why so many people spend days optimising meta tags thinking it will improve their rankings:confused1:

Meta tags are "calls to action".

Google does place importance on the Title tag - it does not effect rank though.

Gordon N · Feb 20, 2009

BreezeMedia said:
Almost all search engines ignore meta tags now so where they are placed makes little or no difference.

Google in particular consider all meta tags as optional and they have absolutely no effect on rank. Proof hereand here. (you could always plough through their patents for more proof).

Google also has something called the duplicate content penalty - countless sites have hundreds of pages with identical meta tags - does it ban these? No.

I am aware that over the last few years Google have made them optional, but the do still look at them for various reasons. For example I make use of geographic data which Google themselves use for placement in regional SERPs (amongst other uses),and the 'robots' tag comes in handy for preventing the SERPs showing data from dmoz and allowing you to choose what is displayed under results, plus the nofollow which again has uses. If Google didn't use them none of this would work.

BreezeMedia said:
It still puzzles me why so many people spend days optimising meta tags thinking it will improve their rankings:confused1:

Because there is more than one search engine! Other search engines (including Yahoo and Live) openly use meta in their indexing process, and if you only optimise for Google your ignoring a lot of internet users that prefer other engines (it may be a small percentage, but it's a large number!).

BreezeMedia said:
Meta tags are "calls to action".

Not sure what you're getting at with that one, descriptions can be used as a call to action but I fail to see geographic or robots data is a call to action??? :confused1:

Dizzydiza · Feb 20, 2009

Hi guys thanks for debating this for me. I have had a quick google of some of my bookmarked websites and it seems to me that you are both right. Most websites have the title at the start but I found quite a few where the title was in the middle of the meta tags and I think I found one with the title after the meta tags. Dont ask me to point them out as I have a lot of bookmarks and I just did a random check.
I have made an executive decision.

As the programme I use always starts with the title anyway I think I will revert to that. But it does seem to be a matter of preference how you place your title and meta tags. If there is anymore helpful advice I am happy to listen

By the way I still think I did good creating a template for my website as I am self taught

PS this is the bit where you all go.....yes Di....you did good

Brian McIntosh · Feb 20, 2009

By the way I still think I did good creating a template for my website as I am self taught

Diana, I was going to post this anyway. I think you've done a brilliant job. I don't understand half the stuff mentioned in this thread so, to come from nowhere to where you are now certainly gets my admiration.:thumbup:

stuarty · Feb 20, 2009

Dizzydiza - yes you're doing a fantastic job.

Don't worry about not understanding it - you're learning and you can refer back to it later as you get better.

Gordon N said:
I make use of geographic data which Google themselves use for placement in regional SERPs (amongst other uses),

Incorrect. Google does not use the geo tag for placement in regional SERPS or any other SERPS for that matter. Proof

You can get listed on google with zero meta tags. Quality links will override all these factors combined. Example - banksy.co.uk - no tags of any kind yet this site ranks #3 for "website"

Gordon N said:
the 'robots' tag comes in handy for preventing the SERPs showing data from dmoz and allowing you to choose what is displayed under results, plus the nofollow which again has uses. If Google didn't use them none of this would work.

This tag is still optional and has limited value. Google will only display the dmoz information if it is more relevant to the search term someone entered.

What if you have a robots.txt and robots meta tag and they conflict? Google will execute the most restrictive. So if your robots.txt file excludes a page Google will never see the robots meta tag. Equally, what if you wanted to exclude from Google but not yahoo?

For the benefit of newbies; All this robots talk is about excluding information from a site called dmoz.org (the open directory project ODP). Google sometimes uses this directory to put snippets of information in it's search results (SERPS). If Google can't find information from your webpage (unlikely) it "may" take the information from your dmoz.org listing - if you have one.

Some people however don't want the dmoz stuff displayed in search results because it may be out if date so as a precaution they ask search engines to exclude this information in the results. Use a tag like <meta name="robots" content="NOODP"> To exclude google only use <meta name="googlebot" content="NOODP">

If you don't have a dmoz.org listing then don't worry about it.

Gordon N said:
Because there is more than one search engine! Other search engines (including Yahoo and Live) openly use meta in their indexing process, and if you only optimise for Google your ignoring a lot of internet users that prefer other engines (it may be a small percentage, but it's a large number!).

I never knew that there was more than one

OK ...I was being Google specific. But since you point it out, how many examples of sites optimised for Google that rank equally on Yahoo with no meta tags would you like? Yahoo has been biasing their results for years. They bias their results on "on the page" content - ie content you can see. But why bother at all when you can get a ranking on Yahoo through their paid inclusion programme?

When I said it puzzles me I say this because I've been optimising sites for years and the results are always the same. I've optimised dozens of client sites specifically for yahoo/msn but google still acounts for 80% of their traffic. Even our site - we rank #1 for a phrase on both Yahoo/msn but on Google it ranks #18 Nearly 75% of traffic for this same phrase comes from Google.

Why spend the same money optimising for yahoo as you would for Google?

Gordon N said:
Not sure what you're getting at with that one, descriptions can be used as a call to action but I fail to see geographic or robots data is a call to action??? :confused1:

Typo - should have read "meta description tags".

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